[ARob]

see your SOC go up during the descent out of the Rockies!

Amen to that!

Just did a Steamboat Springs trip, second time over I70 in my Bolt. first time was too new to pay close attention, but this time paid closer attention. Coming through the Eisenhower Tunnel, I had about 50 mi of range on the GOM. Getting onto C470 in Golden, it was sitting at over 100, enough to get me home with 7% SOC.

I averaged about 40kW or gravity charging on the stretch from the tunnel to Silverthorne on the way out where speeds were posted+, the return was typical Holiday return to Denver traffic, so pretty slow which helped with regen. I got through before the weather, you must have been a day behind.

 

[cyaopec]

Well, I paid 19k for a new 2013 Volt and 21k for a new 2017 Bolt. Although I will admit 3k of the Bolt price was from my GM card discount. Also, a Model 3 is 37k, not 60-120k. And navigation is included. You don't have to pay for any data plan. So it works even without a cell phone.

A cheap Bolt plus ABRP is a great like hack. But it's not a mainstream product. Your average consumer will never know ABRP exists of they don't pay attention to the forums. Kind of like iPad users, they want something really, really simple.

 

[NortonCommando]

... Also, a Model 3 is 37k, not 60-120k. And navigation is included. You don't have to pay for any data plan. So it works even without a cell phone...

Really? $37k for a Model 3?
I'm from Missouri,,, you'll have to show me. Do you have a screen shot?
I assume you are talking about a RWD sedan. I don't want that... I deal with snow and ice.

But the Tesla has a cell phone. What happens when you're out of cell service range?
And, that built-in cell phone... Do you really think it will be a totally free service for ev va and ev va?
Through multiple owners?

You do bring up a good point though. How would a garden variety Bolt owner ever know about ABRP if they're not
'Ev Nerds'?

 

[Dyefrog]

Really? $37k for a Model 3?
I'm from Missouri,,, you'll have to show me. Do you have a screen shot?
I assume you are talking about a RWD sedan. I don't want that... I deal with snow and ice.

But the Tesla has a cell phone. What happens when you're out of cell service range?
And, that built-in cell phone... Do you really think it will be a totally free service for ev va and ev va?
Through multiple owners?

You do bring up a good point though. How would a garden variety Bolt owner ever know about ABRP if they're not
'Ev Nerds'?

He bought a used model 3 but the SR+ on the website is $37,990, and it will run circles around a Bolt in snow and ice.

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

www.tesla.com

I'm almost in the snow belt of upstate NY and frequently visit during the winter. I've had a FWD EV and I have a RWD EV. The RWD Tesla is far better in snow and ice than any FWD EV with similar tires.

There's not a built-in cell phone, this isn't the 90's. It has built-in Wi-Fi which for me is free for life and recent owners I think it's $8/month but that has nothing to do with the phone. The phone uses bluetooth to unlock the car but if for some reason you loose connectivity or run out of battery, you get 2 credit card "keys" that function the same. You swipe them on the B pillar to open the car and place them below the center armrest to "start" the car. Where do you get your Tesla info? Try their website.
www.tesla.com

 

[NortonCommando]

.... The RWD Tesla is far better in snow and ice than any FWD EV with similar tires.

There's not a built-in cell phone, this isn't the 90's. It has built-in Wi-Fi .....

I don't care about 'weight distribution' and blah blah...
How can any RWD be better than any FWD in snow and ice?

When a RWD gets stuck, it's stuck. I'm sure the Tesla probably applies the brake to the spinning tire, but that tire is still only pushing or pulling in one direction.

Maybe I have more experience driving both types of cars in the snow than you....
Maybe I question your bold statements about the wonders of a Tesla....

Now, when you're way out there on the lonesome highway, streaming music and looking at the status of the SC you are headed to,, how does it do that? Not through wifi, I'm sure.

I'm too busy trying to figure out everything on my amazing $16k Bolt to look at expensive to own and maintain Teslas.
Like brake fluid changes and brake caliper slider pin cleaning and lubing. How do these maintenance needs compare on these two brands of EV's? I've read horror stories of brake jobs on a Model S that lives in snow, ice and salt country.

 

[Dyefrog]

I don't care about 'weight distribution' and blah blah...
How can any RWD be better than any FWD in snow and ice?

When a RWD gets stuck, it's stuck. I'm sure the Tesla probably applies the brake to the spinning tire, but that tire is still only pushing or pulling in one direction.

Maybe I have more experience driving both types of cars in the snow than you....
Maybe I question your bold statements about the wonders of a Tesla....

Now, when you're way out there on the lonesome highway, streaming music and looking at the status of the SC you are headed to,, how does it do that? Not through wifi, I'm sure.

I'm too busy trying to figure out everything on my amazing $16k Bolt to look at expensive to own and maintain Teslas.
Like brake fluid changes and brake caliper slider pin cleaning and lubing. How do these maintenance needs compare on these two brands of EV's? I've read horror stories of brake jobs on a Model S that lives in snow, ice and salt country.

I apologize, I misunderstood your phone comment to mean there's a phone dock like a 92' BMW 735. I'm not certain how it works now but I don't pay anything extra and I have cellular and Wi-Fi. That may have been part of the Premium Interior Package initially offered on the early model 3's. They eventually bundled some of the PIP into the Standard Features which now is Wi-Fi necessary for OTA, basic maps and navigation. All included. For $9.99/month, you get Premium Connectivity which includes:

• Live Traffic Visualization
• Satellite-View Maps
• Video Streaming
• Caraoke
• Music Streaming
• Internet Browsing

I'm not a tech geek so I can't tell you what works with cellular and what works with Wi-Fi but there are some areas where the streaming music cuts out and the mapping no longer shows up. Navigation though always still works as does Autopilot regardless of connectivity issues AFAIK.

Connectivity | Tesla Support

Connectivity is an important part of all Tesla vehicles, further enhancing the driving experience by providing access to features that require data usage. Find out more about Standard and Premium Connectivity.

www.tesla.com

As to winter driving, I can only tell you that I had a Leaf (admittedly not a Bolt) that had 1/2 the horsepower of a Bolt and with snow tires, was a pig. Even in wet conditions, it would spin to its hearts content. It got to be quite fun at times to try and drift with plenty of understeer? when nobody was around but traction was pitiful. I've read that some here have complained about similar issues with their Bolts. Can't say if the traction control is just better or the dymanics of handling between a pusher and puller make the RWD better but for me and many others I've spoken to that appreciate handling characteristics, they and I prefer RWD over FWD.
There are examples of FWD ICEV's with the engine/transmission over the front tires that do exceptionally well in snow and ice. That's not in question, I'm talking about FWD vs RWD EV's that have instant torque and lots of it. There's a big difference.

 

[Packard V8]

I don't care about 'weight distribution' and blah blah...

Not caring about physics doesn't mean the laws won't apply.

How can any RWD be better than any FWD in snow and ice?

This is last-century ICE thinking. Old FWDs were nose-heavy, thus had better traction than a nose-heavy RWD. That's no longer true. Most current BEVs have more equal F/R weight distribution. The Tesla M3 under discussion has 47% front, 53% rear, so they're not going to behave like old FWD or RWD. With more weight on the rear comes more traction.

When a RWD gets stuck, it's stuck. I'm sure the Tesla probably applies the brake to the spinning tire, but that tire is still only pushing or pulling in one direction.

You'll have to explain this one to us. I don't have a clue as to the point you're trying to make.

Maybe I have more experience driving both types of cars in the snow than you....

Only if you have more than fifty years of driving on snow and ice for six months of the year.

jack vines

 

[Jcray]

Yes, this works for an EV Nerd (a term of endearment). But your average person doesn't want to play pilot and input weight, SOC, cross wind, tire rolling resistance, elevation change, temperature, battery degradation, ending SOC---and yes I'm exaggerating. The industry has a long way to go in terms of ease of use. I've tried showing potential buyers all the Apps on my phone--the Chevy App, ABRP, EVGo, EA, EVConnect, ChargePoint, Greenlots,etc. At that point you've lost them and they want nothing to do with a BEV. And at that point I haven't even gotten out my Chargepoint and EVGO RFID cards, let a lone shown them the EA App on my phone connected to Apple Pay.

It's too complicated and an anti-EV sales tool. I appreciate the technical fun all these tools provide. And if you want to use them that's fine. But the industry needs to provide something simple and built in like Tesla has.

I'm looking forward to see what travel integration the Mach-E provides. I'm sure it will be a step up from what current BEVs provide.

I tend to agree. ABRP just comes across as being more complicated to use asking for various inputs and when I first checked it out, I was immediately turned off. And it's also contingent on chargers working, which AFIK, Tesla doesn't have an issue with. That's by far the biggest advantage Tesla has in my opinion, the ability to just travel and charge without having to rely on third-party, sometimes-unreliable chargers and also provide real-time usage stats to see if they're even available.

 

[redpoint5]

Jack has already covered it, but RWD can be more capable than FWD in the snow, especially if the vehicle has the traction control dialed in well. Without traction control, the main issue is that loss of traction in the rear means oversteer, which is more difficult to recover from than understeer.

I'd have no worries driving a modern RWD vehicle in snow country with proper winter tires. The limiting factor then is usually ground clearance. It's nice having a bit more traction for acceleration with AWD, but all cars are all wheel cornering and all wheel braking.

... and I'm always saying this, but the standard Model 3 can still be had by phone order for ~$36k. Seems most people prefer to spend a bit more for the SR+

 

[Packard V8]

... and I'm always saying this, but the standard Model 3 can still be had by phone order for ~$36k. Seems most people prefer to spend a bit more for the SR+

After driving the Dual Motor, I'd find the extra, even if I had to work nights and weekends as a greeter at Walmart (and I hate Walmart!)

jack vines

 

[redpoint5]

After driving the Dual Motor, I'd find the extra, even if I had to work nights and weekends as a greeter at Walmart (and I hate Walmart!)

jack vines

Yes, because you enjoy fun. I'm similar in that regard.

We're not meant to merely persist for a moment, but to explore the boundaries. Pursuit of excess in itself is not a moral failing, but encoded into most individuals being.

 

[sly]

He bought a used model 3 but the SR+ on the website is $37,990, and it will run circles around a Bolt in snow and ice.

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

www.tesla.com

I'm almost in the snow belt of upstate NY and frequently visit during the winter. I've had a FWD EV and I have a RWD EV. The RWD Tesla is far better in snow and ice than any FWD EV with similar tires.

There's not a built-in cell phone, this isn't the 90's. It has built-in Wi-Fi which for me is free for life and recent owners I think it's $8/month but that has nothing to do with the phone. The phone uses bluetooth to unlock the car but if for some reason you loose connectivity or run out of battery, you get 2 credit card "keys" that function the same. You swipe them on the B pillar to open the car and place them below the center armrest to "start" the car. Where do you get your Tesla info? Try their website.
www.tesla.com

Do you also haunt the Leaf forums and the Kona forums? Are you salivating at dipping into the ID.4 forum? Or do you just haunt the Bolt forum? Do you spew your knowledge and Tesla tidbits everywhere, or primarily here? Do you have NOTHING else to do with your time so this is some kind of entertainment for you? Have you thought of taking up a hobby, knit-picking perhaps?

 

[NortonCommando]

As to winter driving, I can only tell you that I had a Leaf (admittedly not a Bolt) that had 1/2 the horsepower of a Bolt and with snow tires, was a pig...

Just to be clear, Modern Winter Tires are vastly different from classic 'Snow Tires'.

Jack has already covered it, but RWD can be more capable than FWD in the snow, ...
... the standard Model 3 can still be had by phone order for ~$36k. ...

Once again, You'll have to show me.
I'm thinking about the comparison videos as seen at Tire Rack where they show cars on Ice Rinks and other outside real world tests.
Once a RWD car starts spinning while trying to get moving, such as on ice, it spins one tire or the other. Advanced traction control helps. Traction control in an EV is incredibly quick responding compared to ICE.
With FWD cars you have many directions to point the wheels to get going from a stop. You don't have that option in RWD. I've been stuck behind Tangs and Beemers in flat parking lots.

$36k ? Kind like ordering 'Off Menu' at a restaurant, right?
You know Tesla's record on these pricing matters. It changes with the wind.
You'll have to Show Me !

Or don't. I'm really happy with the Bolt!
I'm already started shopping for Winter Tires on Steelies. But I'll probably wait until I wish I had bought them...

 

[cyaopec]

I tend to agree. ABRP just comes across as being more complicated to use asking for various inputs and when I first checked it out, I was immediately turned off. And it's also contingent on chargers working, which AFIK, Tesla doesn't have an issue with. That's by far the biggest advantage Tesla has in my opinion, the ability to just travel and charge without having to rely on third-party, sometimes-unreliable chargers and also provide real-time usage stats to see if they're even available.

Yea, my overall point is that it needs to be more simple and integrated. I know the industry is working on integrating all the charging networks into the cars. I'm looking forward to seeing what the integration is like on VW and the new Cadillac and Mach-E. My thoughts are that this is a barrier to adoption that can be solved with money and programmers and will make for an experience a consumer will enjoy.

It's bad enough I have to try and convince people it's not hard to put a 240 line into their house (sometimes it is). I don't need more obstacles beyond that.

 

[cyaopec]

Really? $37k for a Model 3?
I'm from Missouri,,, you'll have to show me. Do you have a screen shot?
I assume you are talking about a RWD sedan. I don't want that... I deal with snow and ice.

But the Tesla has a cell phone. What happens when you're out of cell service range?
And, that built-in cell phone... Do you really think it will be a totally free service for ev va and ev va?
Through multiple owners?

You do bring up a good point though. How would a garden variety Bolt owner ever know about ABRP if they're not
'Ev Nerds'?

The map data exists in your car and is updated from time to time. If you are outside of cell phone range the navigation works but without live traffic updates. But obviously if you are in an area without a cell signal there won't be traffic. I live in a canyon without cell signals or GPS. A strength of the Bolt is that I can pre-condition using the key fob. The Model 3 won't "wake up" over wi-fi and because I have no cell signal I can't pre-condition the car by waking it up via an LTE signal. But then again, I live in Southern California. So I only encounter freezing temps a handful of days per year.

 

[Fivedoor]

I don't care about 'weight distribution' and blah blah...
How can any RWD be better than any FWD in snow and ice?

When a RWD gets stuck, it's stuck. I'm sure the Tesla probably applies the brake to the spinning tire, but that tire is still only pushing or pulling in one direction.

Agree to disagree on that one. I grew up driving RWD cars in Michigan, with crappy 1980's snow tires they were "OK", and with modern snow tires they are no worse than a FWD car that has the same weight distribution in relation to the driven tires... the difference being the thing you want to ignore in your first line... weight distribution in an EV makes them much less sensitive to RWD vs FWD than in an ICE car.

Keith

 

[NortonCommando]

...The Model 3 won't "wake up" over wi-fi and because I have no cell signal I can't pre-condition the car by waking it up via an LTE signal. ....

Yes, Tesla cars communicate with the Tesla mothership through 'A Cell Phone' built into the car.
Supposedly lots of data, right? Stuff you can't control or should care about, right?

Now, the question:
Is it in writing somewhere that you car will have this LTE service for Free , Forever?

Just curious....

 

[cyaopec]

Yes, Tesla cars communicate with the Tesla mothership through 'A Cell Phone' built into the car.
Supposedly lots of data, right? Stuff you can't control or should care about, right?

Now, the question:
Is it in writing somewhere that you car will have this LTE service for Free , Forever?

Just curious....

If the car is awake and without a cell signal but has Wi-Fi you can do everything through wi-fi. I can keep my car awake simply by enabling cabin overheat (even in winter) or leaving Sentry on. That way I can pre-condition my car if I need to. I let it fall asleep because I'm OCD about not using electricity when I don't have to. But a cell signal isn't needed. Regarding your question, the cell signal isn't for navigation but traffic routing. Forty minutes of my commute each day is without a cell signal but the maps and navigation work just fine. You simply won't know if there is a traffic jam ahead and won't be re-routed.

I suppose if your LTE connection broke and you were too cheap to get it fixed you could still do remote diagnostics and software (including map) updates through wi-fi. But for live traffic re-routing you'd have to use your cell phone and another map application.

You can also turn off data logging for your Tesla. So you don't actually have to share any data with Tesla--Apple operates the same way. They want to collect data to make the products better. But if you don't trust them you can opt out under the privacy settings in your car.

All Teslas come with standard connectivity, which is the traffic re-routing and I'm guessing the ability like OnStar to do remote diagnostics outside of Wi-Fi. The 9.99 Premium just gives you music streaming and satellite imagery.

 

[Dyefrog]

If the car is awake and without a cell signal but has Wi-Fi you can do everything through wi-fi. I can keep my car awake simply by enabling cabin overheat (even in winter) or leaving Sentry on. That way I can pre-condition my car if I need to. I let it fall asleep because I'm OCD about not using electricity when I don't have to. But a cell signal isn't needed. Regarding your question, the cell signal isn't for navigation but traffic routing. Forty minutes of my commute each day is without a cell signal but the maps and navigation work just fine. You simply won't know if there is a traffic jam ahead and won't be re-routed.

I suppose if your LTE connection broke and you were too cheap to get it fixed you could still do remote diagnostics and software (including map) updates through wi-fi. But for live traffic re-routing you'd have to use your cell phone and another map application.

You can also turn off data logging for your Tesla. So you don't actually have to share any data with Tesla--Apple operates the same way. They want to collect data to make the products better. But if you don't trust them you can opt out under the privacy settings in your car.

All Teslas come with standard connectivity, which is the traffic re-routing and I'm guessing the ability like OnStar to do remote diagnostics outside of Wi-Fi. The 9.99 Premium just gives you music streaming and satellite imagery.

Is the Premium Connectivity required for the Entertainment features such as Netflix and YouTube or are those standard on all Tesla's?

 

[Dyefrog]

Yes, Tesla cars communicate with the Tesla mothership through 'A Cell Phone' built into the car.
Supposedly lots of data, right? Stuff you can't control or should care about, right?

Now, the question:
Is it in writing somewhere that you car will have this LTE service for Free , Forever?

Just curious....

If you took delivery before July 1 2018, then the LTE service is free for the lifetime that I own the car. It's no longer the case. 1 year free then subscription. But as cyaopec explained, it doesn't have a detrimental effect on the functionality of the car. The wi-fi is much more important IMO.
Tesla plays with their pricing and offerings depending on how the quarter is shaping up which most are familiar with the "free" supercharging that gets thrown around as needed. This was one of those "offerings". One of the reasons (admittedly petty) why I'm reluctant to upgrade to a Model YP.