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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-welcomes-gm-competition-60-minutes-interview/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7d&linkId=60714887
I think this interview should help clarify the back and forth I've had on here in regards to the Tesla mission.
Based on the teaser video, he addresses the opening up of patents, encouraging competition, the mission to advance sustainable transportation, taking over the soon to be shuttered GM factories, etc.
For those quick to admonish and criticize him and the companies he runs, I would encourage watching it and hearing back if your opinion has changed.
If he's nothing other than brutally honest, it's more than most CEO's.
 

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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-welcomes-gm-competition-60-minutes-interview/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7d&linkId=60714887
I think this interview should help clarify the back and forth I've had on here in regards to the Tesla mission.
Based on the teaser video, he addresses the opening up of patents, encouraging competition, the mission to advance sustainable transportation, taking over the soon to be shuttered GM factories, etc.
For those quick to admonish and criticize him and the companies he runs, I would encourage watching it and hearing back if your opinion has changed.
If he's nothing other than brutally honest, it's more than most CEO's.
Brutally honest, as in “financing secured”?

I admire Elon, but “brutally honest” doesn’t come to mind when considering his admirable character traits.
 

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Brutally honest, as in “financing secured”?

I admire Elon, but “brutally honest” doesn’t come to mind when considering his admirable character traits.
"Brutally honest" in his own mind anyways. That's why he randomly called that guy a pedophile on Twitter, among other things.
To be fair, he's been fairly quiet on Twitter ever since he got replaced as chairman and they got the adult daycare staff in place at Tesla.
 

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To TimBolt, GregBrew and bro1999: Perhaps you would find anything Bob Lutz has said in the last 6 years to be more enlightening.
 

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Words are words. Actions speak louder.

Start transitioning to North American CCS and make the Superchargers in America and Europe open to all EV drivers through a payment portal, and then I'll take it a bit more seriously. In the meantime, I'll assume that Tesla is actually scared to death of competition, and they think that keeping the Superchargers as a walled garden gives them a competitive advantage (doing so actually hurts them long term).
 

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Words are words. Actions speak louder.

Start transitioning to North American CCS and make the Superchargers in America and Europe open to all EV drivers through a payment portal, and then I'll take it a bit more seriously. In the meantime, I'll assume that Tesla is actually scared to death of competition, and they think that keeping the Superchargers as a walled garden gives them a competitive advantage (doing so actually hurts them long term).
I thought Tesla offered to allow other manus to use their supercharger network, but none wanted to. Instead they developed the combo plug. I’ll look for a source on this. Tesla patents are open source, so anyone can use them... did I miss something? Supercharger DC over the AC line and neutral isn’t rocket science.
 

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In the meantime, I'll assume that Tesla is actually scared to death of competition, and they think that keeping the Superchargers as a walled garden gives them a competitive advantage (doing so actually hurts them long term).
You keep saying this as if Tesla's Supercharger network is not a competitive advantage. Even if it wasn't (which it is), the perception is that it's a better network, and perception alone is a competitive advantage.

As long as the Supercharger network is even perceived to be an advantage, Tesla has no motivation to open it up. They can open it up any time they want and earn the pennies it would bring them.
 

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I thought Tesla offered to allow other manus to use their supercharger network, but none wanted to. Instead they developed the combo plug. I’ll look for a source on this. Tesla patents are open source, so anyone can use them... did I miss something? Supercharger DC over the AC line and neutral isn’t rocket science.
"Offered" is a bit of a stretch. They opened up the patents on the hardware, so anyone who wanted to was free to adopt the standard. However, they won't allow the automaker to access the Supercharger Network unless they contribute some undisclosed amount per vehicle (money or chargers). In addition to that, Tesla might reserve the right to "certify" any vehicles wishing to access the Superchargers. They already do that with their own vehicles, forcing individuals to go through expensive, rigorous certifications that are not guaranteed to result in access to the network. No automaker in their right mind would sign onto such draconian restrictions, as the blow back would be on them, not Tesla.

All we know is that, despite the open invitation, no automaker has seen it to be in their (or their customers') best interests to sign on to use the Supercharger Network with whatever Tesla's expectations are.

And, at this point, it's becoming a non-issue. The Tesla's plug is no longer the fastest standard, and with many of the next generation EVs charging at significantly faster rates than what the current Superchargers can support, it makes even less sense. Elon has been promising V3 for a while now, and we'll apparently hear about it next year. But I wouldn't expect automakers to build their vehicles in anticipation of a standard that hasn't even been published, let alone tested, yet. Either way, it's doubtful that V3 will be superior to CCS (or even CHAdeMO) at this point, and even if it is, Tesla would have a huge amount of retrofitting to do just to catch up (while a national network of 350 kW CCS chargers will be in place by summer 2019).
 

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You keep saying this as if Tesla's Supercharger network is not a competitive advantage. Even if it wasn't (which it is), the perception is that it's a better network, and perception alone is a competitive advantage.
I've never denied that it is a competitive advantage, and that is how Tesla is using it. What I keep repeating is that it is becoming less of a competitive advantage every day. Also, even if an automaker were to sign on to use the Superchargers, the Superchargers would remain a competitive advantage because Tesla could set whatever terms they wanted for vehicles that are now, essentially, dependent on Tesla.

Get in a tiff with Tesla? Have a contract dispute? Thousands of your customers now have no long-range fast charging network available to them? Sounds like a nightmare for any automaker.

As long as the Supercharger network is even perceived to be an advantage, Tesla has no motivation to open it up. They can open it up any time they want and earn the pennies it would bring them.
And that perception is being driven hard. I am truly amazed by the levels of ignorance about non-Tesla EVs and public charging that I see coming from the Tesla owner forums and groups. Many don't realize that the CCS standard is actually faster than the Supercharger standard. Many more didn't realize that 350 kW chargers were already installed and live in the United States. Even more don't realize that there are currently over 150 ultra fast DC charging sites currently being installed along major U.S. interstate corridors. My guess is that ignorance is due to many of their regular "news" sources omitting any discussion of it.

If I had to guess, part of that is a concerted, strategic attempt to "cross the chasm" from the innovator/early adopter stage that Tesla currently finds itself in to the early majority of consumers who are far more pragmatic. The dialog is all about making Tesla the de facto standard and creating enough momentum to carry Tesla into the mass market. It's an interesting gambit that might pay off, but a few vehicles and charging networks could spoil the whole effort, which could be why there's such an effort to ignore those subjects.

The anomaly I find most interesting is Rivian. I've never before seen Tesla owners sling so much praise on a non-Tesla EV before, and I haven't heard one peep about, "Well, where are they going to charge?" even though Rivian has chosen to adopt the CCS standard. And if Rivian is being given a pass because they've talked about installing a few "adventure" chargers to enable their owners to drive far afield, why wasn't the same pass given to Porsche, which announced ~400 ultra fast DC charging sites that would be installed within the next year?
 

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...I am truly amazed by the levels of ignorance about non-Tesla EVs and public charging that I see coming from the Tesla owner forums and groups. Many don't realize that the CCS standard is actually faster than the Supercharger standard. Many more didn't realize that 350 kW chargers were already installed and live in the United States. Even more don't realize that there are currently over 150 ultra fast DC charging sites currently being installed along major U.S. interstate corridors. My guess is that ignorance is due to many of their regular "news" sources omitting any discussion of it.
The ignorance lies squarely on the shoulders of the legacy automakers who consistently spend ALL their advertising dollars on ICE vehicles and are still secretly hoping that Tesla goes bankrupt so they can petition governmental agencies across the world with the mantra that "EVs aren't practical/profitable/viable". Let them promote the CCS standard the way Tesla has promoted their Supercharger network and your argument will be reduced to "the market has chosen."


...The dialog is all about making Tesla the de facto standard and creating enough momentum to carry Tesla into the mass market. It's an interesting gambit that might pay off, but a few vehicles and charging networks could spoil the whole effort, which could be why there's such an effort to ignore those subjects.
See the response posted above.


The anomaly I find most interesting is Rivian. I've never before seen Tesla owners sling so much praise on a non-Tesla EV before, and I haven't heard one peep about, "Well, where are they going to charge?" even though Rivian has chosen to adopt the CCS standard. And if Rivian is being given a pass because they've talked about installing a few "adventure" chargers to enable their owners to drive far afield, why wasn't the same pass given to Porsche, which announced ~400 ultra fast DC charging sites that would be installed within the next year?
I spoke at length with the Rivian folks at the LA Auto Show. They are all in on EVs. That is their entire focus. They have been working underneath the radar for nine years in R&D, securing funding and financing, and purchasing a former Mitsubishi plant in Illinois preparing for their initial launch of EVs. Let me repeat, Rivian is all in on EVs.

Tesla owners recognize the business plan and attitude as similar to, and in some respects, superior to what Tesla has already done. Hence, the "pass".

Porsche, not so much. their ultra fast DC pronouncement amounts to nothing more than this month's FUD announcement until they've actually A) made the car available, and B) established a reasonable network of their ultra fast DC chargers. If they turn the monthly Tesla-killing FUD pronouncement into reality, you will see an attitude shift by Tesla owners.
 

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I thought Tesla offered to allow other manus to use their supercharger network, but none wanted to. Instead they developed the combo plug. I’ll look for a source on this. Tesla patents are open source, so anyone can use them... did I miss something? Supercharger DC over the AC line and neutral isn’t rocket science.
In terms of the Superchargers, I doubt that Tesla has any patents to protect the concept of electricity. There is likely a design patent or two to protect features related to the charge cable's shape and method patents that protect anything unique in the way it delivers the current and or provides a unique safety feature, as well as ones meant to protect the communication protocols used to make the system work, but from my understanding, the big ones are related to the actual tech inside the car i.e. the electric drive system. I say likely because I have not bothered to search Tesla's patents. So maybe we are both missing something.
 

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In response to one of your earlier posts here in this thread, I think it is possible that we see Tesla itself open up its Superchargers to other manufacturers EV's by way of an adaptor that would allow cars like the Bolt to plugin, but I don't think it is very likely. Certainly, I doubt that we will see any of the other manufacturers approach negotiations with Tesla in terms of Supercharger use, as that would defeat the purpose of all the trouble they went through to develop a competing standard. But even if Tesla would make a move to supply some type of adaptor, it is still too early IMO to make such a move. Maybe in another 12 to 18 months when we have a better idea of what the landscape looks like, we might be able to make a better guess as to what Tesla and the other manufacturers might do.

I've never denied that it is a competitive advantage, and that is how Tesla is using it. What I keep repeating is that it is becoming less of a competitive advantage every day. Also, even if an automaker were to sign on to use the Superchargers, the Superchargers would remain a competitive advantage because Tesla could set whatever terms they wanted for vehicles that are now, essentially, dependent on Tesla.

Get in a tiff with Tesla? Have a contract dispute? Thousands of your customers now have no long-range fast charging network available to them? Sounds like a nightmare for any automaker.
I can't see this ever happening unless the non-Tesla EV that you are considering was able to adopt Tesla's proprietary plug as part of the car. In other words, using the Bolt as an example, Bolt owners would never be dependent on Tesla even if there was some future deal that would allow them to use the Superchargers because they have the CCS plug architecture built into their car. Any Bolt owner that would find himself/herself in the middle of a spat between GM and Tesla could just avoid Superchargers and continue to plugin to the CCS network. The same would go for Tesla owners. If a CCS plug were developed that allowed a Tesla car to plugin to that network, it wouldn't create a dependency on that network, but would represent just another option to charge.


And that perception is being driven hard. I am truly amazed by the levels of ignorance about non-Tesla EVs and public charging that I see coming from the Tesla owner forums and groups. Many don't realize that the CCS standard is actually faster than the Supercharger standard. Many more didn't realize that 350 kW chargers were already installed and live in the United States. Even more don't realize that there are currently over 150 ultra fast DC charging sites currently being installed along major U.S. interstate corridors. My guess is that ignorance is due to many of their regular "news" sources omitting any discussion of it.

If I had to guess, part of that is a concerted, strategic attempt to "cross the chasm" from the innovator/early adopter stage that Tesla currently finds itself in to the early majority of consumers who are far more pragmatic. The dialog is all about making Tesla the de facto standard and creating enough momentum to carry Tesla into the mass market. It's an interesting gambit that might pay off, but a few vehicles and charging networks could spoil the whole effort, which could be why there's such an effort to ignore those subjects.

The anomaly I find most interesting is Rivian. I've never before seen Tesla owners sling so much praise on a non-Tesla EV before, and I haven't heard one peep about, "Well, where are they going to charge?" even though Rivian has chosen to adopt the CCS standard. And if Rivian is being given a pass because they've talked about installing a few "adventure" chargers to enable their owners to drive far afield, why wasn't the same pass given to Porsche, which announced ~400 ultra fast DC charging sites that would be installed within the next year?
As part of the Tesla community, I have to say that your comments do not give an accurate description of what that community is all about. Sure I have met a few people that are a little over the top in terms of their support of Tesla, and I have heard a few unfair reviews of other non-Tesla EV's, but that does not speak to the majority. The problem I see here is that your misunderstanding of the situation is probably what causes you to mislabel the Tesla community as ignorant. While I agree that the CCS network is being built out, I don't think I have ever expected anything else. How could I? But go back to 2012 and tell me how many CCS fast chargers there were. Tell me that someone looking into EV's in 2016 or 2017 and who wound up buying a Tesla because of the Supercharger network took a decision based on ignorance. To state that the CCS standard is faster then the Supercharger standard is speaking only to words written on a piece of paper. It is a little hard for an EV owner to charge his/her car with the white paper of a standard's theoretical maximum capacity. How many CCS chargers reach that capacity today? This basically describes the Porsche issue. BTW, I have heard rave reviews of the new electric Porsche from within the Tesla community. The major fault I have heard is that it is still not hear and neither is its fast charger. So it is more a case of just being practical as opposed to being ignorant. I personally love the look and style of the new Porsche and am sure that it will do well. I have read something more recent that Porsche is also planning to increase production because they are receiving a larger then expected demand for that car. I for one am not surprised.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I thought Tesla offered to allow other manus to use their supercharger network, but none wanted to. Instead they developed the combo plug. I’ll look for a source on this. Tesla patents are open source, so anyone can use them... did I miss something? Supercharger DC over the AC line and neutral isn’t rocket science.
They do have a standing offer to the supercharger since day one. You'll probably never get an honest answer from any of the legacy manufacturers as to why they've not taken them up on the offer but my suspicion is it's mostly financial. GM had publicly stated that they would not invest a nickel in any charging network. Since there would be a fee to join the Supercharger network in addition to probably upping the specs of the Bolt, they would be foolish to loose even more money on the EV program then they already were.

Elon: "So, I do encourage our competitors to really make a huge investment and we've been saying that for a long time. And then -- their only aim is competitive disadvantage because they didn't -- we try to help them as much as we could and they didn't want to take our help, so they can use a lot of patents for free and we're happy they can use our Supercharger network if they can just have an adapter for our connector or something.
As to the history of the charging protocols, this is an interesting read."


TL/DR: Chademo is the global leader in number of stations/plugs with the supercharger next and the new kid on the block CCS is last.
There was a better article but I can't find it but this will do.
https://greentransportation.info/ev-charging/range-confidence/chap8-tech/ev-dc-fast-charging-standards-chademo-ccs-sae-combo-tesla-supercharger-etc.html
This article also gives a good history of why the Chademo plug wasn't simply adopted when SAE was trying to consolidate a protocol.

It will be interesting to see how things shake out as currently half of all EV's sold in the US are Tesla's and that will probably only get bigger, especially when the model Y and pick-up are released. As their ability to ramp up their investment now that they are profitable and looks to be from here on out, I would expect the build-out to pick up the pace.
https://investorplace.com/2018/11/tesla-plans-to-double-supercharger-network-size-in-2019/
This would be approximately 23,000 plugs with 2,700 stations.
As those that have had the opportunity to use the network will attest, and as the EA program has followed suit, stations with multiple plugs is critical. The redundancy is key to successful and more importantly, stress free long distance travel.
 

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Tesla patents are open source, so anyone can use them... did I miss something? Supercharger DC over the AC line and neutral isn’t rocket science.
It does you no good to build a compatible adapter if the Supercharger won't authenticate you and allow you to start charging. The missing piece isn't just hardware, it's a way for non-Tesla owners to be authorized by the Tesla charging network. For example, being able to sign up and put a credit card on file as you do with other EV networks.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
It does you no good to build a compatible adapter if the Supercharger won't authenticate you and allow you to start charging. The missing piece isn't just hardware, it's a way for non-Tesla owners to be authorized by the Tesla charging network. For example, being able to sign up and put a credit card on file as you do with other EV networks.
That goes without saying and is one of the requirements I suppose along with the fee. I imagine most EV's have the handshake capability so it shouldn't be a road block since as you mention, that's how non-Tesla's fast charge now. It's most likely something though that would be established at the corporate level. Either GM offers it as an option and the VIN is entered into Tesla's database or it's built in to the sales price of all GM EV's but the VIN would still probably need to be activated.
 

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I spoke at length with the Rivian folks at the LA Auto Show. They are all in on EVs. That is their entire focus. They have been working underneath the radar for nine years in R&D, securing funding and financing, and purchasing a former Mitsubishi plant in Illinois preparing for their initial launch of EVs. Let me repeat, Rivian is all in on EVs.

Tesla owners recognize the business plan and attitude as similar to, and in some respects, superior to what Tesla has already done. Hence, the "pass".
I understand, but it still doesn't explain the complete apathy I see from those same people directed at Bollinger, Byton, Faraday Future, Lucid, etc. Their treatment of Rivian feels more like it is a Tesla business partner or affiliate than a competitor. Maybe that feeling is exacerbated by the fact that Rivian's R1T is exactly what I imagined Tesla's truck would look like when they get around to unveiling it. Perhaps there is also a higher level of familiarity because Rivian is another South Bay Area company?

Porsche, not so much. their ultra fast DC pronouncement amounts to nothing more than this month's FUD announcement until they've actually A) made the car available, and B) established a reasonable network of their ultra fast DC chargers. If they turn the monthly Tesla-killing FUD pronouncement into reality, you will see an attitude shift by Tesla owners.
Didn't Porsche come out with some highly positive praise for what Tesla has accomplished so far? I know that in all of the interviews of Porsche designers and engineers I've seen, they've been very kind and positive in their assessment of Tesla's products. So I really don't think "FUD announcements" is a term that should be associated with Porsche.

Regardless, the attitude I see by a lot of Tesla owners is that of children sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling "Nah! Nah! Nah! Nah!" I get the feeling that even when Electrify America opens their 200th site, covering 75% of America's major corridors with 350 kW charging coverage, the response will be, "Yeah, but they're just compliance chargers!" And when Recargo finishes their North-South corridor of four to six 100 kW to 200 kW DCFC sites, the response will be, "Yeah, but no one drives Highway 101!"

So no doubt, when Porsche installs 400 sites with 350 kW charging, it will go largely ignored. And if not, attempts will be made to invalidate it.
 

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So no doubt, when Porsche installs 400 sites with 350 kW charging, it will go largely ignored. And if not, attempts will be made to invalidate it.
But wouldn't it be fair to say that if you are not driving a Porsche, you probably won't give it much of your attention? I would think that the importance of Porsche installing 400 350kW charging sites would be for the Porsche community, not the Tesla community.
 

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Some discussion on this thread has been directed at the potential (or lack thereof) for interconnectability of CCS with Tesla SCs and vice versa. It has already started in Europe where, I believe, the EU has mandated a uniform charging infrastructure. The result is that the Model 3 is being introduced there with a CCS charging port, and Tesla is retrofitting their SCs with CCS capability.

I do not see that happening in the US, primarily because Congress can't even decide when to blow its collective nose. So, in all likelihood, we will have competing, and incompatible, charging networks crisscrossing the US for the forseeable future. Perhaps more awkward than a uniform standard, but better than no charging networks at all.
 

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Some discussion on this thread has been directed at the potential (or lack thereof) for interconnectability of CCS with Tesla SCs and vice versa. It has already started in Europe where, I believe, the EU has mandated a uniform charging infrastructure. The result is that the Model 3 is being introduced there with a CCS charging port, and Tesla is retrofitting their SCs with CCS capability.

I do not see that happening in the US, primarily because Congress can't even decide when to blow its collective nose. So, in all likelihood, we will have competing, and incompatible, charging networks crisscrossing the US for the forseeable future. Perhaps more awkward than a uniform standard, but better than no charging networks at all.

It's simple...have the porn producers decide...>:)
 
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