[dborn]

And no state has anything close to what Quebec has. And you said each province has incentives.

Is there any province in Canada where the total incentive, federal and provincial, is less than $7500?

Not all provinces have EV incentives...
There is a Canada-wide $5000 incentive and then:
QC offered $8000 but now lowering it to $7000
NB, PEI and NL offer $5000
BC and NS offer $3000
AB, SK, MB and ON have $0

Ref: Electric Vehicle Government Incentives - CAA National

 

[GregBrew]

I shudder every time I see the term "theory" misused.

 

[micantony]

#1 GM needs to sell EVs for CARB
#2 Alfred Sloan's vision of a car for every purse and purpose. Nevermind low income folks, the middle class is largely priced out of the EV market. Average transaction price for an EV is now over $60K. Somebody has to make entry level vehicles. Even an Equinox starting at 30 is stretching the definition of affordable.
#3 They have a factory tooled up to make it and yes they have stockpiled parts. Set up a stamping machine to make a body panel, for example, they will make a large number in one run, then retool and stamp out another.

 

[RacerX00]

Is GM really worried about CARB? They sell 25,000 BEVs a year for Chevy alone and have a bunch of EVs on the horizon, the Silverado included with capacity to scale to like 400,000 vehicles at Orion or something nonsensical.

 

[roseberry]

When I bought my 2020 I paid more than $10,000 less than MSRP. Discussion started with ~9,000 offered in some kind of "incentive". It's the first GM I've ever bought so I was wondering if they always have ridiculous MSRPs or if it's something to do with the tax credit or something else to do with EVs. In the last few months, I've read that due to the shortage, a lot of dealers where charging in excess of the MSRP and for some reason that I can't fathom, the manufacturers don't like that, so maybe the dealers like unrealistically high MSRPs. I never heard of an MSRP swap before getting on this forum but maybe that has some to do with it. My hypothesis is that it's all BS. They should call it the MBSRP.

 

[DAC17]

Another one. GM is sick of paying $hundreds of millions to Tesla for failure to meet EPA fleet mileage targets. Not only do more Bolt sales help to avoid this penalty, but GM looks more environmentally aware. Sounds like a win/win to me, even if they lose a little money on each sale (which they likely are).

 

[usedBolt]

I think that Ms Bara is just trying to live up to her promise to get a large number of EV on the road, cheaply.

They claim that they can build the Bolt EV and EUV more cheaply now, but I don't think anybody's buying that.

They just want them on the road, even at drastically reduced prices.

The major piece of the vehicle price, the HV battery, has come down in price. When the 2017 was released, info pried out of GM had a replacement battery running nearly $16K. By the time of the recall, the parts price was down to $10-13K. That's not a big difference, but it's a difference. Another way to look at it is that LG is covering about $1B of the recall cost; $1B/140K cars is about $7200 each. IOW very close to the magic $100/kwh.

I think GM isn't making much money at a $27K MSRP on the Bolt, but they're not losing money. IOW it's the last year or 2 of production, when a lot of deliveries will be to fleets and bargain chasers, and the startup expenses have been mostly amortized.

 

[OliverB]

The major piece of the vehicle price, the HV battery, has come down in price. When the 2017 was released, info pried out of GM had a replacement battery running nearly $16K. By the time of the recall, the parts price was down to $10-13K. That's not a big difference, but it's a difference. Another way to look at it is that LG is covering about $1B of the recall cost; $1B/140K cars is about $7200 each. IOW very close to the magic $100/kwh.

I think GM isn't making much money at a $27K MSRP on the Bolt, but they're not losing money. IOW it's the last year or 2 of production, when a lot of deliveries will be to fleets and bargain chasers, and the startup expenses have been mostly amortized.

I believe LG Chem is covering near $2 billion of the battery replacement cost.

 

[Lika]

I live in an EV bubble. I've driven EV's exclusively for four years and I don't have any interest in any ICE vehicles. I don't pay attention to them, to gas prices, etc. So when I heard GM was dropping the price of the Bolt by $6000+ I was floored. The car was competitive, perhaps even a bargain, at it's original price. Plus it's obvious competition, something like the Hyundai Kona has very tiny distribution and is virtually unobtainable new, same for the pricier Ioniq 5. Model 3 and Mach-e have risen in price so much they're not in the same bracket any more, and right now you can't buy them either.

But when I step outside the EV bubble, perhaps I understand the price cut. The Bolt is quite a bit more expensive than comparable ICE models, like $10K more. If you don't follow the EV world you might think you need to lower the price of the Bolt to compete. GM definitely wants to move some EV's after an embarrassing year of shipping almost none. So some knucklehead GM exec who knows nothing of EV's dropped the price. That's my Theory #1.

Theory #2 is that GM has Bolt parts stockpiled to the roof in their warehouses, and a hard deadline to shut down the production line early next year. Maybe they're now desperate to build and ship all the Bolts they have parts for before they wind up with a warehouse of spare Bolt pieces.

Or theory #3, they want to put the Bolt completely behind them before they start hyping the Equinox EV or something. So make all you've got parts for, sell'em quick, and shut the line down.

Anyone have any other theories? What am I missing?

They inflated the prices to get all the money they can from the federal, state and local insensitive. 🐀 .

 

[ComputerDoc]

I live in an EV bubble. I've driven EV's exclusively for four years and I don't have any interest in any ICE vehicles. I don't pay attention to them, to gas prices, etc. So when I heard GM was dropping the price of the Bolt by $6000+ I was floored. The car was competitive, perhaps even a bargain, at it's original price. Plus it's obvious competition, something like the Hyundai Kona has very tiny distribution and is virtually unobtainable new, same for the pricier Ioniq 5. Model 3 and Mach-e have risen in price so much they're not in the same bracket any more, and right now you can't buy them either....

[Three theories placed here]......

Anyone have any other theories? What am I missing?

I suppose all of those are possible:
I think the simplest explaination is that Chevy sees that it's important to stay visible as an EV player.
And having a very competant EV as the cheapest decent 250-mile plus EV out there as now (as soon as orders of 2023's can be accepted) now widely touted (free advertising) as the lowest priced EV in America
( Chevrolet Bolt Now the Lowest-Priced Battery-Electric Vehicle in America , etc)
is a way to get that distinction, reputation, and status. Thinking long-term strategy about positioning itself as maybe the name you should think of right after Tesla when you think of EVs.

 

[imanjunk1963]

Or maybe GM is simply positioning those 2 bolts now so that when the Equinox and Blazer EV pricing is announced it nicely fits in their positions with eventual sunset of the BOLTS but hopefully more so retrofitted to Ultium batteries. Those buying the bolts now with very little possibility of reasonably priced battery upgrades IF needed might regret it later either by trying to keep the car longer or trying to sell it at no so good price once the Ultium platform is in full swing I think. I myself am waiting on the Equinox and/or Blazer exactly for that reason being one who tries to keep cars longer than just a few years....with hopes this time the battery system will be supported with interchangeable upgrades in the future than my VOLT is. Please hang on another year my 2014 volt!

 

[RacerX00]

Or maybe GM is simply positioning those 2 bolts now so that when the Equinox and Blazer EV pricing is announced it nicely fits in their positions with eventual sunset of the BOLTS but hopefully more so retrofitted to Ultium batteries. Those buying the bolts now with very little possibility of reasonably priced battery upgrades IF needed might regret it later either by trying to keep the car longer or trying to sell it at no so good price once the Ultium platform is in full swing I think. I myself am waiting on the Equinox and/or Blazer exactly for that reason being one who tries to keep cars longer than just a few years....with hopes this time the battery system will be supported with interchangeable upgrades in the future than my VOLT is. Please hang on another year my 2014 volt!

If you could break them down into a sizes "Size 1, 2, 3, 4" etc., I would think they're 1 size off. Like the EV/EUV would be size 2 and 3 while the Equinox and Blazer would be size 3 and 4.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I think it's a blank slate and anything can happen, but that's why I always throw the Trax and Spark in there when discussing this stuff. That's where GM has bigger holes in its portfolio and that's where these cars already sit.

 

[EVolved]

Is GM really worried about CARB? They sell 25,000 BEVs a year for Chevy alone and have a bunch of EVs on the horizon, the Silverado included with capacity to scale to like 400,000 vehicles at Orion or something nonsensical.

Chevy has never sold more than 25,000 BEV's in a year according to CNBC.
GM expects record year of Chevy Bolt EV sales following fire recall (cnbc.com)
But the bigger point is GM's profitability is directly tied to CARB credits. So they do worry about CARB in the sense that that need credits to sell their gas guzzlers. It's been posted previously that GM would never sell more than 25,000 Bolts and for good reason. Beyond that number, they are just throwing away money. That was the number estimated to maximize the value of the carbon credits to maintain production projections for the truck/SUV division. So Chevy not selling more than 25,000 Bolts is not a failure by any means. It's by design.

The 17 new BEV's GM will have on the market next year will certainly boost that number beyond what's necessary. Especially as their Truck/SUV sales continue to lose market share and sales in general. If GM really felt that electrification was just a fad and would never take over the vehicle market, they wouldn't be building battery plants and trying to saturate the market with 20 BEV models by 2023. That is a good thing. GM has accepted the inevitable after kicking and screaming during the Trump administration to castrate the sustainable transportation movement. At least they still don't have their head in the sand like Toyota.

 

[CoreyW]

I live in an EV bubble. I've driven EV's exclusively for four years and I don't have any interest in any ICE vehicles. I don't pay attention to them, to gas prices, etc. So when I heard GM was dropping the price of the Bolt by $6000+ I was floored. The car was competitive, perhaps even a bargain, at it's original price. Plus it's obvious competition, something like the Hyundai Kona has very tiny distribution and is virtually unobtainable new, same for the pricier Ioniq 5. Model 3 and Mach-e have risen in price so much they're not in the same bracket any more, and right now you can't buy them either.

But when I step outside the EV bubble, perhaps I understand the price cut. The Bolt is quite a bit more expensive than comparable ICE models, like $10K more. If you don't follow the EV world you might think you need to lower the price of the Bolt to compete. GM definitely wants to move some EV's after an embarrassing year of shipping almost none. So some knucklehead GM exec who knows nothing of EV's dropped the price. That's my Theory #1.

Theory #2 is that GM has Bolt parts stockpiled to the roof in their warehouses, and a hard deadline to shut down the production line early next year. Maybe they're now desperate to build and ship all the Bolts they have parts for before they wind up with a warehouse of spare Bolt pieces.

Or theory #3, they want to put the Bolt completely behind them before they start hyping the Equinox EV or something. So make all you've got parts for, sell'em quick, and shut the line down.

Anyone have any other theories? What am I missing?

GM is no longer eligible to offer their EV buyers a $7,500 federal rebate. Same for Tesla and Toyota. However, other manufacturers are (Hyundai, Kia, etc.) and I would imagine that GM had to lower their prices in order to be competitively priced "after rebate" pricing. The good news is that there is room to drop the price by $6,000 which leads to manufacturers starting to compete for sales.

 

[RacerX00]

Chevy has never sold more than 25,000 BEV's in a year according to CNBC.
GM expects record year of Chevy Bolt EV sales following fire recall (cnbc.com)
But the bigger point is GM's profitability is directly tied to CARB credits. So they do worry about CARB in the sense that that need credits to sell their gas guzzlers. It's been posted previously that GM would never sell more than 25,000 Bolts and for good reason. Beyond that number, they are just throwing away money. That was the number estimated to maximize the value of the carbon credits to maintain production projections for the truck/SUV division. So Chevy not selling more than 25,000 Bolts is not a failure by any means. It's by design.

The 17 new BEV's GM will have on the market next year will certainly boost that number beyond what's necessary. Especially as their Truck/SUV sales continue to lose market share and sales in general. If GM really felt that electrification was just a fad and would never take over the vehicle market, they wouldn't be building battery plants and trying to saturate the market with 20 BEV models by 2023. That is a good thing. GM has accepted the inevitable after kicking and screaming during the Trump administration to castrate the sustainable transportation movement. At least they still don't have their head in the sand like Toyota.

I mean, how many cars they sell is totally within their control, it always is. They're making and setting the price and fire sales are always an option when you're dealing with numbers that are less than a percent of your gross profit margin, much less overall revenue. Every car manufacturer sells every car they ever make 😁

I think the Bolt's history is a little more on the nose. Perhaps, "hah EVs are a joke" type mentality, I can't project into the decision makers minds but it's very often acknowledged by GM themselves they missed a big thing with the Bolt by making, selling and marketing it as they did.

Quote from GM President:

“The company, at that time when we launched the original Bolt, was afraid and didn’t really get behind it. We would have liked to have had a portfolio of electric vehicles to go to market with. It’s hard to put one car in market and have anybody get behind it in a sales network.”

 

[kent]

ALL non-GM and non-Tesla BEVs are still eligible for $7500 Federal Tax Credits for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Cars.

Prior to EV6 and Ioniq 5, it seemed like HyunKia was not serious about selling BEVs in the US (e.g. mostly CA and CARB state only BEVs). As for Model 3, can't buy them, sure the ETA is way out there if you don't load it up with pricey options/more expensive versions, but they sure seem to be shipping a lot of them in the US, albeit with a long wait:

US: Tesla Dominates BEV Sales In January-April 2022

The BEV car segment continues to expand in the US and it's not expected to change in the near future, despite the broader automotive industry slowing down.

insideevs.com

Nearly a third of 2022 US EV buyers are getting a Tesla Model Y

Together, the Model 3 and Model Y account for 62.8% of new EV registrations from Q1, while Tesla’s four models together captured 71.7% of the U.S. EV market.

www.greencarreports.com

Here are some Bolt sales, in comparison: https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/bolt-ev/chevrolet-bolt-ev-sales-numbers/.

Might you return to the Bolt at that price? Bet you could get a chunk for your Niro.

 

[kent]

The entire Bolt series was origially intended as entry level bait. The pouch cell tech that was used was in its infancy,
and the recall disaster and associated negative publicity put the brakes on Bolt...just like a pandemic does to the rest
of society. Now GM is hoping to finish out the last of this battery, and draw in new buyers. Many new buyers will
be totally unaware of both the recent pouch failures at the Bolt level and that the Bolt is a dead end. GM is thinking that the price alone, in a recession,
will get the entry people that they originally wanted. THEN...nothing but Ultium will be sold in the near future. Blazer
and all other new Ultium based will not be discounted, rather probably raised in price, perhaps due to inflation alone..

My concern is that, just as they begin to deliver on Ultium, that battery may have the same anode/cathode and contactor
problems. Everyone at the top is dropping pouch (VW, Audi, Porsche, et al) and going to closed prismatic. And, of course,
Tesla has always been closed tech.

What is the difference between pouch and closed prismatic?

 

[Terry Hancock]

What is the difference between pouch and closed prismatic?

Volkswagen unified cell battery

Volkswagen unified cell battery

www.sae.org

 

[kent]

Volkswagen unified cell battery

Volkswagen unified cell battery

www.sae.org

Thanks, it's too bad VW etc. are not following Aptera's lead and using solar tech and trying to enhance it.

 

[redpoint5]

Thanks, it's too bad VW etc. are not following Aptera's lead and using solar tech and trying to enhance it.

Solar on vehicles is mostly a dumb idea. It's slightly less dumb on the radically designed Aptera due to the extreme measures taken to make it efficient.

That may change one day if solar can get better (cheaper or and/or more efficient).