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New member, Model S and 3 owner, purchased a Bolt for MIL

12K views 120 replies 25 participants last post by  sly 
#1 ·
MIL has been wanting an EV for quite some time.
She loves the Model S and 3 that we have at home.

Woke up on saturday and realized there were new rebates/incentives on 2020 Bolts. Saw a listing on cargurus for an LT with no DCFC and contacted the dealer right away.
Drove there a few hours later and MIL drove it home.

Had to buy a new charger since the Tesla charger I have at home needed an adapter to work with J1773. Took home a Clipper Creek 40P the same day.

This lady drives my 4 y/o son to school daily, feeds him and takes care of him as if he's her own son. It's the least I can do for her.
 
#4 ·
I have 20k miles on my 2019 Bolt, no DCFC and I have found nothing at all that shows resale value will be affected by the lack of the DCFC. There's too many still in the commuting mindset. I know this will change but not for many years. There will always be a lot of 'us' who commute with the car and won't road trip with it. Even if I had DCFC, I still won't road trip it. I am Jelly at your Tesla's though. Does MIL stand for mother in law? If so, I have the diagrams for the brake lines if you need them and the fuse to pull to kill regen braking. PM me if you need it in the future.
 
#5 ·
What's the issue with regen braking that you would want to kill it?
MIL - mother in law

DCFC issue - I think people are overcome with fear that they will need to use DCFC in that one instance they're stuck somewhere with low range and need to get somewhere quickly.
 
#7 ·
MIL- Malfunction Indicator Lamp :p

I've got no use for DCFC and doubt it affects resale more than the $750 to add it. The major pricing indexes don't even list DCFC as an option, so the typical customer wouldn't even be thinking to pay more for DCFC. Only in the EV world do I hear people talk about adding expensive options as a way to make money when you sell the vehicle on the used market.
 
#11 ·
The EV market - used in particular - is still very immature. People don't know what they are missing when they don't order the DCFC port. They are simply ignorant for the most part. That will change over time as more EVs hit the road and fast charging stations become more common.

As an example of this, a local Chevy dealer bought up a dozen Bolts - all without DCFC. They then sat on the lot, un-sellable without some steep discounts. Meanwhile the competitor bought them all with DCFC and cannot keep them on the lot. In this case, it was the dealer's ignorance combined with the knowledgable customer base that killed the value of the DCFC-less cars.
 
#15 · (Edited)
The EV market - used in particular - is still very immature. People don't know what they are missing when they don't order the DCFC port. They are simply ignorant for the most part. That will change over time as more EVs hit the road and fast charging stations become more common.
I wouldn't necessarily call that ignorant. Some of us call the car what it is and just commute with it. Then again, over a year ago a person here told me how many more DC charging stations would be in my state in 1 year time. Thankfully, Harley installed a few and their prediction almost came true....if you count 24kw stations as 'high speed.' But I do believe in spirit you are correct. But the timeline is farther away than you think. And you are completely clueless to a very large demographic who indeed are buying EV's to (only) commute with because the concept of sitting while charging isn't for them. The number of rest area's on US80/90 is half what it was 25 years ago and for those who drive that route notice that 'every other one' has been turned into a highway maintenance facility. Many here are pulling off these extra lunch breaks and route changes to facilitate DCFC charging on their celebrated 200+ mile journeys. I'm totally jealous because I just haven't been able to adapt to it yet, though I hope I will someday. But we all know the success of the EV's requires the infrastructure changes that one manufacturer clearly understands.
 
#25 ·
I think the thing that pushed me to insist on DCFC for my Bolt is just the availability of charging options. It can be tough to find available chargers in the Bay Area, so DCFC opens up a whole slew of chargers that would be unavailable otherwise.

The speed of charging is nice, too, but is less of a priority IMO as most EVGos are in places I don’t mind spending a bit of time in like malls, Wal-Marts, etc.
 
#32 ·
When we bought our Bolt, I informed the sales person (and, eventually, his supervisor) that as far as I was concerned the DCFC port was not an option. GM may have considered it one, but if I am purchasing an automobile, I want it fully functional. If I want something that I know will never leave town, I'll buy a Segway.
 
#35 ·
So just trying to get this straight...when I got my 2019 last May I do not recall any option to have the DCFC. It just came that way. iirc from reading here the earlier model year Bolts offered this as an option perhaps in the USA. I don't know if this was the case in Canada as I wasn't looking that hard at it at that time. It was on my radar when it came out as the Tesla's were/are too much money for my taste. But not finer details.
From 2017 on - did the Bolt come with it in Canada?
2019 on - is it still an option in the USA?
 
#45 ·
There is a really informative 12min segment on YT made in November where the guy uses a GoPro MAX with 360deg view and split screen inserts to record his Tesla Model 3 with the newest hardware and software. Sometimes it's a little scary using the FSD, sometimes it makes good decisions. Check it out for yourself...

 
#46 ·
Here's another one with the current M3 hardware and current (ver.10) software:

 
#48 ·
Regarding DCFC-less Bolts, I saw a leftover 2019 loaded Premier Bolt listed at $24k that had been on the lot for over 400 days according to Cargurus. Loaded with everything....except fast charging, which explains why it had been sitting for so long. But at over $17k off MSRP, it's no wonder it sold within days at that price point.
 
#50 ·
I find it hard to believe that car sat there that long if it was ready, truly up for sale and presented as such. And your presumption that, if it's true, is solely because of it's lack of DCFC is a stretch at best. I can think of a lot more reason's why that car will sit, overpriced is one of them.
 
#53 ·
What are the limits of the non-$7k default autopilot then?

I watched those two videos, then several more. I got the impression that the features shown aren't nearly as advanced as the hype. The simplest example is no ability to recognize red lights and stop signs. Also there were instances where merging onto the freeway it went immediately into the fast lane halfway then quickly lurched back to the slow lane to finish accelerating to freeway speed. Maybe this feature is already saving lives but those are instances where the trip would be anything but calm. Clearly still software under development.
 
#56 · (Edited)
What are the limits of the non-$7k default autopilot then?

I watched those two videos, then several more. I got the impression that the features shown aren't nearly as advanced as the hype. The simplest example is no ability to recognize red lights and stop signs. Also there were instances where merging onto the freeway it went immediately into the fast lane halfway then quickly lurched back to the slow lane to finish accelerating to freeway speed. Maybe this feature is already saving lives but those are instances where the trip would be anything but calm. Clearly still software under development.
I don't know where the line is drawn between FSD features and EAP or standard Autopilot features currently. I believe that everything we have now is still considered part of the original EAP package which was $5k. Autopilot is standard (it is not full EAP though) . Most will agree that the EAP is well worth it.

Autopilot (Standard) includes:
Lane Assist
Collision Avoidance
Speed Assist
Some navigation features maybe

EAP includes:
TACC
Autosteer
Auto Lane Change (NOA)
Autopark
Full Navigation

I do know for a fact that it does recognize stop lights as I tested it this morning on the way to the gym. It was about 5:45 and no other cars as I approached a red light. I could see it turn yellow for the cross traffic and was trying to time it so that it would turn green before I got to the intersection to avoid disabling EAP either manually or braking. Well the light on their side went to a green arrow so as I got within maybe 75 feet driving at 30 mph, the audio alarm went off and a large red steering wheel appeared on the screen. I can't say whether it would have braked for me as I didn't give it a chance but it does see them and issue a warning.
There are a ton of videos of the car actually performing emergency braking so I don't know why it wouldn't.




There is certainly plenty of room for improvement which is probably why most people feel level 5 autonomy is a long ways off if ever. There are so many edge cases that I can't see how it would handle them but my personal incredulity has no bearing on whether it's possible.

The $5k purchase of EAP though gets you the things I listed above. Those that paid the $2k-$3k extra for FSD, IMO have not received much if anything. The HW3 motherboard is the first of getting what you paid for. If someone has a non-FSD optioned Tesla with EAP, they could chime in on what they think they don't have that I mentioned to verify.

The thing too that most don't consider is that it's really good at preventing accidents as shown in the video above but it's the safest car you can buy when there is an accident and that too is standard.



Small Family Car: Mercedes-Benz CLA (Mazda3)

Large Family Car: Tesla Model 3 & BMW 3-Series (Skoda Octavia)

Large Off-Road: Tesla Model X (Seat Tarraco)

Small Off-Road/MPV: Subaru Forester (Mazda CX-30 & VW T-Cross)

Hybrid & Electric: Tesla Model 3 (Tesla Model X)


HTH
Correction, the only upgrade currently from standard Autopilot is FSD for $7k, there is no longer a separate EAP package at $5k. Same specs as listed above though I believe.
 
#61 ·
That's a tough call. Currently for $7k, I would tend to agree but it depends on your situation. If you do long distance traveling or spend a decent amount of time in stop and go traffic, most would say it's priceless. You should really take an extended test drive first to see how comfortable you are with it. It's not for everyone. It's far from perfect. It's overly cautious IMO but it's improved immensely in one of the recent OTA especially regarding automatic lane changes. I still don't like the NOA auto lane changing even though it's now about twice as fast (5 seconds from blinker on to blinker off). I prefer to manually accept or ignore the suggestions.
If you think the unattended driving features that Musk is promoting next quarter (per last years Investorys Autonomy Day) are something that:
You have faith will actually happen, eventually
You find useful,
then it's probably worth getting but there's always the threat that if you opt out for now, the price to add it later may no longer be $7-$8k. Musk has suggested that it will only go up in cost. The good news is that there's usually a grace period to make your decision.
 
#62 ·
$7K is a tough pill to swallow but I would buy it. I have a trait of nodding off while driving. I don't understand why it happens, but driving at night with a little fatigue is a perfect storm for me. I have driven about 500 miles test driving an M3, once for a weekend. I drove a fair amount of it to test the auto drive capability. I was super impressed and had zero problems. I for one, do not want it to take over completely for me but feel good knowing it's there as a layer of protection. It's not perfect at all from my very limited trial but I was still impressed.
 
#63 ·
That's a good observation that I've gotten spoiled to. I do routinely make a 400 round trip about once a month on 90% interstate and it's just a much more relaxed and comfortable trip compared to my previous ICEV which was a BMW 545 garage queen road warrior. I absolutely loved using that car for trips as my Leaf was my daily driver. I had no idea how much better driving a BEV long distances was. And I get even better performance for $.03/mile vs. $.12/mile not counting maintenance.
I do admit though that the sense of security has made me more lax on keeping 100% focused on driving. In all honesty, the center screen should not allow internet access when out of park. Hopefully in a few months it won't matter.
 
#64 ·
Now you guys are talking me into it. :)
Less aggravation in stop and go traffic, and the safety aspect of noticing things that I don't, sound like valuable aspects regardless of occasionally needing to override it. I'm old and as I get older while traffic gets more complex, automation supplementing my observation and reaction time sound worthwhile.
 
#66 ·
I don't think you understand how the complete system works.
You're relying too heavily on external cameras as being critical to the functionality. They play a supporting role and are limited in effectiveness in dark or low light conditions yet Autopilot works at night.
When I mentioned redundancy, I wasn't referring to overlap of data or vision, it was overlap of necessary sensors, the hardware.
How do you know that the 4 cameras behind the windshield along with radar aren't enough for it to function well enough to park itself in a safe place?
Sonar also is unaffected by road film, slush and such. They literally see through metal.


"While not as anti-LiDAR as Musk, it appears researchers at Cornell University agree with his LiDAR-less approach. Using two inexpensive cameras on either side of a vehicle’s windshield, Cornell researchers have discovered they can detect objects with nearly LiDAR’s accuracy and at a fraction of the cost."

Maybe just radar and the 4 front cameras along with the extensive data in the NN are enough?
Radar isn't affected by road film, rain, slush, it's sound waves. How do you know that your friends radar shut down?
Here's a few links that may help you better understand how it currently works.




Radar is forward looking and can see up to 160m, and can see through almost anything.
That and the 4 front facing cameras behind the windshield are the primary sensors. The camera behind the windshield handles wide angle, narrow angle, front, sides, 60m, 80m, 150m, 250m.
GPS also plays a small part.

To think that Tesla has completely missed the obvious is what's ludicrous. That's just a confirmation bias. You've shown that card repeatedly.
Every time Autopilot disengages, Tesla knows. Do you think they've just ignored those incidents without determining why?

Are you aware that what we currently have is not FSD? There aren't any non-employee Tesla's that have a functioning FSD. Why don't you just wait to see how Tesla has addressed your concern before you write them off as incompetent. The disengagements that currently happen could be computer/software related. You just don't know and neither do I but I'd be willing to bet that Tesla does.
 
#68 ·
I don't think you understand how the complete system works.
I don't think you understand how sensors, data collection and QC, and subsequent analysis works.

All you're putting forward is wishful thinking - you need to apply actual critical thinking and common sense. The fact of the matter is, Tesla's sensors are all easily fouled - cameras and radar - and despite your beliefs, the ultrasonic sensors are not suitable for anything other than very slow and short-distance sensing (ie, parking lots, garages, etc). Once fouled, Tesla's sensors require human intervention. No neural net or AI can overcome insufficient information. Thinking a car could only function autonomously with forward looking sensors alone is crazy. Simply being able to "limp" into Park is insufficient. If things go bad while on a bridge or other location without shoulders then we're talking significant problems and potential safety issues.

All of your specs and quotes revolve around how well sensors work under perfect conditions. A true self driving vehicle is going to have to deal with real world conditions. Tesla's can not, and there's no getting around that with neural nets, etc.
 
#72 · (Edited)
A better route planner.
When you log in, you can set it to live connect to your car which will pull the data feeds of efficiency, battery charge state, location, etc.
Once you've connected, it will allow you to share your trip to the Tesla Navigation
One of the things about Tesla nav that i wish it had was waypoints. That's where ABRP is better. I also think the Tesla nav is weak in analyzing all the external conditions as they affect projected range. I don't think it takes into account the weather or grade changes which ABRP does.
 

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