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Discussion Starter #1
So.. apparently from what I've read in the article posted below, Hybrids and electric cars are not "as eco-friendly" as we think. They explain how a study was done, and hybrids/evs are produing more particles from their brakes,tires, and the road than your conventional gas vehicle. But their on the fence about which is worse ... ? I'm not too sure about this. That being said, I'm also very new to this hybrid/ev game so I would much rather have someone else chime in and share some thoughts.

Electric and hybrid cars are not as eco-friendly as you would expect, a recent study says. According to Scottish scientists, these vehicles are just as bad for the environment not because of their batteries or the place where they get electricity from, but because of tires and brakes.

According to Peter Achten and Victor Timmers, both from Edinburgh University, the extra weight of batteries make eco-friendly cars more
damaging do the environment
, because they end up producing more
particulates
.

As the study explains, these vehicles are often much heavier than their conventionally powered equivalents, and the extra weight increases tire and brake wear. With every acceleration and braking phase, these cars suffer accelerated wear on brakes and tires, which leads to specific particulates.

Furthermore, their increased weight also damages the roads more than lighter vehicles, and the road surface apparently sheds some particles on its own because of this.

The results of the research carried out by the two Scottish scientists were published in a journal called Atmospheric Environment. The researchers discovered that non-exhaust particulates that come from brakes, tires, and the road are larger in size than their tailpipe equivalents.

They claim these non-tailpipe particulates are more hazardous to humans than conventional ones because they are more likely to cause asthma attacks and increase the probability of heart attacks or strokes.

At this point, any reasonable person would think that regular vehicles do similar damage as hybrids and electric vehicles to the environment. And they would be right, because conventional propulsion solutions will also bring tailpipe particulates and other emissions from the combustion process.

As
The Times
notes, the particles generated from tire wear, brake wear, and road damage end up being more dangerous to humans because of their size. The study says that these
particulate emissions
are “roughly equal” to the ones saved from reduced engine use.

However, they might increase the likelihood of certain diseases in humans, instead of damaging the ozone layer. So, which one is worse? Cancer and increased chance of stroke and heart disease or ozone damage? Tough call.


 

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All brakes produce dust when used and depending on how one drives, they could go through the same amount of pads as an electric vehicle. As for the increased weight damaging roads, there's a lot of heavier vehicles out there, not sure why they're targeting the EV specifically and it's pretty lgiht considering how many battery packs it has.
 

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I drove a first generation Prius for six years and never needed brake service during that entire time. The service manager at my Toyota dealership said that that was pretty much the norm for Priuses because of the regeneration and driving style. I have driven an i-miev for 4 years now and expect not to need brake service on this car either as I drive mostly without using the brakes except stopping from 10mph. Driving style is a big factor and may be more applicable to the Tesla model S than say a Chevy Spark.
 

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I would also agree that brake dust from EV's and Hybrids are significantly less than any conventional vehicle (unless that conventional vehicle has regenerative braking). I have driven 4 Hybrids and never had to have the brake pads replaced or the rotors grinded.
 

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Just because it's published on the internet doesn't make it true. There is no link to any actual study with any scientific data. I'll call BS.

A big red flag about the validity of their "study" is the reference to "accelerated wear on brakes and tires". EV's are much less reliant on brake pads as the goal is to recapture as much energy as possible through regenerative braking. I've seen nothing that suggests EV's are harder on tires, so without something to back that claim up, It's fairly easy to dismiss.

Was this "study" funded by the Koch brothers?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/koch-electric-vehicles_us_56c4d63ce4b0b40245c8cbf6
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Sorry the article posted all weird looking, not too sure what happened there.

But, the whole article is definitely questionable. I mean, we have a large amount of vehicles on the road that weigh either the same or an amount more than the typical EV. There isn't any actual references to specific numbers to support anything at all. But it definitely is getting publicized and shared and viewed among many who probably won't even think to question these things. That's a problem
 

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You're not the first person to think this. Found this "study" on a few news sources and someone suggested the exact same thing. :D

Also good to point out that they're mainly talking about particulates but they don't take into account the carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, etc that the Bolt EV does not produce.

This report is good for a laugh but nothing more.
 

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As long as you're somewhat informed about electric vehicles, the article will look like a troll report. A few people may fall for it but I assume most people won't.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I would hope not, it would be a shame for people to be discouraged because of things like this
 

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I would hope not, it would be a shame for people to be discouraged because of things like this
Don't underestimate the power of articles like this.

I've had several politicians running for our State legislature stop by and ask what my concerns were. One stated flatly that electric cars had a greater carbon footprint than gas cars due to how dirty it was to produce electricity from coal. I live in Oregon and our coal mix was most recently 24% (overall, there are greener options you can choose). The latest estimate places the carbon footprint of an EV to be the equivilent of a 94 mpg gas car - not many of those around. I also pointed out that coal is getting cleaner (tighter regs and scrubbing) and gas getting dirtier (fracking, etc). I also pointed out that the DOE estimates it takes 6-12 kWh of electricity to refine 1 gallon of gasoline (most is generated from burning byproducts of the refining process, but some is purchased from the grid). I can drive at least 25 miles on the electricity used to make one gallon of gas. He asked me to email him some more info and he also agreed to attend our NDEW event in the fall.

Educate where you can. Every little bit helps.
 

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The oil producers know ther will lose plenty if the public accepts EVs and replace their ICEVs for new hybrids and BEVs. The dealers also know that they will lose service income due to the EVs, too.

There is a general agenda to discredit all EVs due to the elecricity they consume, but if you read the actual numbers, a basic BEV gets about 3 miles per kWh of energy, and may consume up to 10 kWh in a single trip. A home A/C unit consumes more than a kW per hour, so an EV uses less energy per day than an A/C unit that runs all day! Even the basic kitchen appliances (refrigerator, stove/oven, microwave, toaster) uses more electrical energy per hour than an EV.

Most EV drivers tend to drive carefully to save energy and are also saving on brake pad wear due to the regenerative braking (done by the motor). As a good example of maintenance savings. here is a link to the 2014 Chevy Spark EV Owner Manual:
https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Ownership/Manuals and Videos/02_pdf/2k14spark_ev.pdf

Read it completely and see the Maintenance Scedule on page 11-4. As you can see for yourselves, the battery and electronics coolant are replace after 150,000 miles or five years. The EDU fluid (basic transmission fluid) is replaced every 97,500 miles! The only "replaceables" (excluding the tires) are the cabin air filter and the wiper blades (both depend on atmospheric conditions). The schedule mentions the brake fluid, but I have owned and serviced GM cars since 1969 and the brake fluid can be replace after a much longer period (my 2009 Chevy Equinox still has its factory fluid). So even the fluids that can contaminate the environment will last longer than in any gas engine vehicle.

So, in the long term (ten or more years) the BEV will be much cheaper and easier to own such that it compensates for any high price differences between the BEV and an equivalent gas engine model.

When the Bolt EV arrives at your dealer, ask for the Owner Manual and read it. That will finally convince you that te Bolt EV will save money, not spend more.
 

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So far, everyone I've talked to does agree that electric cars are better for the environment even if most of their reasoning is that the car runs on electricity and not gas. Best way to change the mind of doubters will be through their wallets. Just let them know maintenece is way cheaper and less frequent and electricity is cheaper too.
 

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I agree that for the most part BEVs are more environmentally friendly than ICEs. Based on my experience owning a BEV, I did not see any significant wear to tires or brake pads that would indicate an increased particulate output from the vehicle - compared to an ICE vehicle. I also believe utilities will continue to be looking for ways to make electricity production cleaner and more efficient in the future.

However, (and I know there's not a lot of history here) does anyone have any information or thoughts on current or future plans for"recycling" of BEVs? Usable battery life of the current generation of BEV is 10-15 years - correct? Can these batteries be recycled/renewed economically (due to size/weight)? I wonder how many BEV owners will pay to have a battery replaced/repaired when the charging capacity falls below a usable value? The price for battery replacement will no doubt be much more than that of an ICE engine replacement - at least in the foreseeable future.

What will happen to the electronics of a BEV with an expired battery? There are already issues with increasing numbers of surplus electronics being added to landfills. Will old BEVs become another source of toxic landfill/junk yard waste?

Once we have proliferation of 200+ mile vehicles - Bolts, Model 3s, etc. - there will more that likely be a surplus of older Leafs (about 200,000 have been sold so far) and other BEVs that will probably never be sold for any price. I think the manufacturers are going to have to take come up with some plans for end-of-life disposal of these vehicles - lest they add to the current electronics waste problem.
 

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However, (and I know there's not a lot of history here) does anyone have any information or thoughts on current or future plans for"recycling" of BEVs? Usable battery life of the current generation of BEV is 10-15 years - correct? Can these batteries be recycled/renewed economically (due to size/weight)? I wonder how many BEV owners will pay to have a battery replaced/repaired when the charging capacity falls below a usable value? The price for battery replacement will no doubt be much more than that of an ICE engine replacement - at least in the foreseeable future.

What will happen to the electronics of a BEV with an expired battery? There are already issues with increasing numbers of surplus electronics being added to landfills. Will old BEVs become another source of toxic landfill/junk yard waste?

Once we have proliferation of 200+ mile vehicles - Bolts, Model 3s, etc. - there will more that likely be a surplus of older Leafs (about 200,000 have been sold so far) and other BEVs that will probably never be sold for any price. I think the manufacturers are going to have to take come up with some plans for end-of-life disposal of these vehicles - lest they add to the current electronics waste problem.
Batteries:
Once a battery capacity drops to an unusable level for an EV (70%? 80%?), there are still many uses. Potential applications are services to utilities such as load leveling, stabilization, and back-up power for emergencies; integration with renewable energy sources like solar or wind, where energy storage can smooth fluctuations in power output and make these sources more reliable and viable for utilities; and distributed applications such as stationary storage for residential solar panels. - See more at: http://www.torquenews.com/2250/you-only-live-onceunless-you-are-ev-battery#sthash.Uo6CkSPG.dpuf
Nissan just announced a new home energy storage product created from recycled batteries sourced from the company’s electric vehicle offerings - xStorage.
Electronics:
I don't think there is a significant difference between an ICE and EV or PHEV as far as electronics (circuit boards). Both are heavily reliant on computer technology and contain multiple computers (and often digital displays).
Used sub 100 mile EV's:
There will always be a market - for the right price. We're already seeing them in the $8-10K range and this opens up a huge potential market. Even with reduced range due to battery degradation, they will fit the needs of many as a commuter or city car. Often lower income workers wind up driving older, repair prone and inefficient ICE vehicles because that's what they can afford. When there are $3-$5K used EV's that require little to no maintenance and are cheap to fuel, there will be a market.
 

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What will also help is if we can somehow get our hands on a service manual, but that's all a matter of luck
No, you can buy most GM (and other brands) service manuals at this page: http://www.helminc.com/helm/homepage.asp

The manuals appear at least one year after the model begins selling. You can get the manuals for the Chevy Volt and the Chevy Spark EV now (unless they are out of print). The 2017 Bolt EV manuals will be available by 2018.;)
 

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If the question is how long will the EV battery last, here is a Chevy Volt that has over 300,000 miles on it and no battery degradation:
http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579

And here is one Volt that has almost 100,000 miles with only 140 miles on gasoline:
http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/371

No Volt since 2010 has loss range due to battery degradation. GM designed a 5 kWh buffer so maybe there is a real loss, but the Volt takes that in and still maintains maximum range. The Bolt EV will be just as good or better.

New BEVs can be running for over twenty years if it has good care. There are several BEVs that have outlasted their owners. The most famous is a Detroit Electric that can still run, and which has been kept at the Ford Museum for over 70 years. The owner and driver was Clare Ford, Henry's wife!
 

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Yeah, doesn't jive with common sense. As mentioned before, EVs don't brake as much since they can regen. Extra tire wear? EVs don't go on long-haul commutes (yet) nor go on road trips as much as ICEs. Road wear from weight? Okay, maybe have a point here. Let's see the numbers and the testing procedures.

Smells like a fishy article source.
 
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