[cwerdna]

Why would fully charging your battery impact your ability to get 300,000 miles out of the battery pack? Please explain with data or science.

If your worried about battery life, dont ever do a DC fast charge. Lv1 or Lv2 to 100% should not impact battery life.

As has been explained many times, high SoC esp. for long periods of time isn't good for li-ion batteries (except maybe LFP which Bolt doesn't use).

See slide 8 of https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/66708.pdf. Notice both cases have charging to 100% but the higher average SoC case (85% vs. 55%) has more degradation.

"*Faster fade at 30% DOD relative to 90% DOD in this scenario is due to longer dwell time at high SOC for the 30% DOD case."

DOD = Depth of Discharge.

I bet the high mileage Teslas you cite weren't sitting at high SoC for very long each day. I bet their average SoC was much lower than a guy who charges to 100%, lets it sit there overnight at 100%, depletes maybe 3 to 10% then charges again to 100%, rinse and repeat.

I've posted What % Should I Charge To? and more in a linked post. It seems like I have to repeat stuff like this pretty much on a weekly basis between here and various Bolt and EV groups I'm on.

 

[567253]

As has been explained many times, high SoC esp. for long periods of time isn't good for li-ion batteries (except maybe LFP which Bolt doesn't use).

See slide 8 of https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/66708.pdf. Notice both cases have charging to 100% but the higher average SoC case (85% vs. 55%) has more degradation.

"*Faster fade at 30% DOD relative to 90% DOD in this scenario is due to longer dwell time at high SOC for the 30% DOD case."

DOD = Depth of Discharge.

I bet the high mileage Teslas you cite weren't sitting at high SoC for very long each day. I bet their average SoC was much lower than a guy who charges to 100%, lets it sit there overnight at 100%, depletes maybe 3 to 10% then charges again to 100%, rinse and repeat.

Thanks, kind of done with the topic, and your link actually makes my point. Charging to 100% is not bad.. Leaving it there is bad. Plus this is a 6yr old study on a vehicle that was probably a few years old so getting close to 10yr old battery tech.

And as mentioned in the paper, (well at the time is was possibilities) but vehicle controls can do a lot to extend the life.

The person who made the comment, I never charge to 100% can think what they want.
I agree there is no point to topping off your battery every night if you only use 1/4 or a 1/3.

Interesting report, wish they would have gotten more specifics about the battery pack, and actual usage since it was in a phev, who knows its usage, since you can run the car with zero battery life. Its possible every cycle was from full to empty, than 100 more miles that day on the ICE.

Yes on that Tesla, as the article talked about usage. But the original comment was not about leaving it at 100%. My electric company gives me a big discount for charging at night. So my vehicle doesn't start charging till 11 pm. depending on how low it is why I start charging it may or may not hit 100% if it does, its probably there for a few hours until I get in and drive it.

Of course Battery temp also plays a huge factor, so if your in a cold or hot extreme environment than can impact your charge habits, cause parking a car with a stable moderate temp, then letting it cool down below freezing, then heating it up while charging and stopping early, so that it cools below freezing and sits for several hours, till you drive and warm it back up is also very bad for battery life. Which is why newer ev's are adding logic if plugged in to keep the battery at its happy temperature, the whole time, but even that requires you to plug it in. If you don't cause you don't want to charge it you will be killing your pack that way... Point is there are lots of things the avg customer doesn't understand about EV tech or what is good or not good for their vehicle battery. Most are better off plugging it in and let the manufacturer control things to keep your battery happy. The idea of using other settings to Hack your vehicle cause you know better than the OEM is silly.. But some people believe GM had a 200mpg carburetor sitting on the shelf hidden away. Well I have seen it, it is actually 333mpg carburetor. (lol)

Been away from the internet for awhile, and jumped in to try and educate someone on the complexity and changing state of Battery chemistry and Vehicle controls, I forgot most people on the internet don't come to learn.

Thanks for the link, will talk to some of my co-workers about it and get there input, being so old though I am sure a lot of it is out of date. Then again Bolt tech is pretty much out of date and old tech so there is that.

 

[cwerdna]

Thanks, kind of done with the topic, and your link actually makes my point. Charging to 100% is not bad.. Leaving it there is bad. Plus this is a 6yr old study on a vehicle that was probably a few years old so getting close to 10yr old battery tech.

And as mentioned in the paper, (well at the time is was possibilities) but vehicle controls can do a lot to extend the life.

The person who made the comment, I never charge to 100% can think what they want.
I agree there is no point to topping off your battery every night if you only use 1/4 or a 1/3.

If you charge to 100% or keep the car at 100%, aside from thermal management (if present), there's really nothing the car can do to reduce the degradation from that other than by draining the battery down.

My roundtrip commute when it's not raining requires only about 10% of my former Bolt's or current Niro EV's battery. No reason for me to basically charge at 100% at work, go home, arrive at work with 90% and to 100%, and so on each day.

Hilltop reserve? has examples of my Niro EV manual suggesting you only charge to 80% and VW's ID.4 manual is really cautious in basically telling people to not keep it above 80% or below 30% for more than 12 hours at a time.

This person lost half their capacity bars by 2020 on their 1/2013 built '13 Leaf in the super mild climate of city of SF: 2013 Battery Bars half way - My Nissan Leaf Forum. Per 2013 Battery Bars half way - My Nissan Leaf Forum, they kept charging to 100%. I suspect they kept it there and ignored what was in the '13 manual and handouts from the dealer (that they may not have received). Despite the chemistry of their '13 being crap, I suspect if they only charged to 80% (easy on '13 and below Leafs), they'd have been at 8 or 9 capacity bars at that posting instead of 6.

Although it seems that on more recent Leafs, Nissan has removed verbiage from their manuals (long story) about not keeping the battery at high SoC, apparently, they still hand out a paper (see bottom 1/4 of Nissan LEAF Owners Group English | I hope someone can provide some clarity on the "not charging past 80%" issue) basically saying don't frequently charge to 100% or keep it above 80% for long periods of time. That was dated 9/2021.

We got confirmation via Leslie Nicoll that Nissan even with '23 Leaf still continues to hand out a paper with the above clauses (paper with revision date of 2/2022).

The practices I mentioned in my other post from Apple and Google continue to this day and have been added to Mac OS, as well.

Tesla's app ( https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/e12wag ) and I'm guessing in the car has UI affordances (for non-LFP cars) to encourage people to charge between a certain level for daily vs. trip usage. A Tesla driver will need to chime in on whether the car warns if you if set it above that.

Range Tips | Tesla Support also alludes to that. Search for daily. Ditto for Home Charging - Frequently Asked Questions,.

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla refers to LFP batteries as does Range Tips | Tesla Support with "For Rear-Wheel Drive vehicles,
If the image of the battery displays ‘50%’ and ‘100%’:.."

 

[ComputerDoc]

If & when I can afford a Chevy Bolt, I’m also thinking about not using one pedal driving.

I never expected to use one pedal driving. I figured it was only relevant for people who find themselves driving in stop and go traffic …..but once I tried it for more than 20 minutes, I wouldn’t drive any other way. Try it… you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[ComputerDoc]

Thanks, kind of done with the topic, and your link actually makes my point. Charging to 100% is not bad.. Leaving it there is bad. Plus this is a 6yr old study on a vehicle that was probably a few years old so getting close to 10yr old battery tech…….


. …….But some people believe GM had a 200mpg carburetor sitting on the shelf hidden away. Well I have seen it, it is actually 333mpg carburetor. (lol).

Still….if you really rarely need the full 100% …full guestimated 260 miles.. range, there's little doubt the battery will be happier routinely charged to 90%
BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries
and so will your brake pads.

As for the 333 mile carburator ….While you were there, didn't you see the engine that runs on water by running a generator to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen?
And the suppressed hidden one that runs on free energy from underlying background zero point energy that exists in space? throughout the entire Universe.

 

[liresong]

…..use one pedal driving.…..I wouldn’t drive any other way. Try it… you might be pleasantly surprised.….

Nah, you can economically beat one-pedal driving by careful featherfooting. One pedal driving also leads to extra unnecessary stress on the battery. You unnecessarily draw energy out of the battery as you drive toward a stop AND then the battery only partially recovers the energy, when slowing. If you can judge well, you can put the car in early neutral, saving the unnecessary energy extraction stress FROM the battery with the engine engaged, AND save the stress TO the battery, as the battery recoups energy while the engine acts as a dynamo electricity producer, as the car slows down during 1 pedal driving. Yes, 2 levels of battery stress eliminated, while the car is coasting in neutral. Who would believe you can do SO MUCH by doing nothing(neutral). People who do use neutral have their eyes on making the battery last to 300,000+ miles.

Those people probably accelerate slower & drive slower, also.…..yes indeed, they are…..featherfooters.

 

[liresong]

………….

 

[SteveWilson1983]

Nah, you can economically beat one-pedal driving by careful featherfooting. One pedal driving also leads to extra unnecessary stress on the battery. You unnecessarily draw energy out of the battery as you drive toward a stop AND then the battery only partially recovers the energy, when slowing. If you can judge well, you can put the car in early neutral, saving the unnecessary energy extraction stress FROM the battery with the engine engaged, AND save the stress as the battery recoups energy while the engine acts as a dynamo electricity producer, as the car slows down during 1 pedal driving. Yes, 2 levels of battery stress eliminated, while the car is coasting in neutral. People who do use neutral have their eyes on making the battery last to 300,000+ miles.

Those people probably accelerate slower & drive slower, also.…..yes indeed, they are…..featherfooters.

Not that I disagree w your driving style, but one-pedal mode doesn't make the pedal a binary switch. You can back off the throttle so you are neither using nor generating any power.. easy to do w dash display.
Still yours is prob still more efficient, removing drive train resistance. To complete the stop, you just come back into 'D'?

 

[567253]

As for the 333 mile carburator ….While you were there, didn't you see the engine that runs on water by running a generator to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen?
And the suppressed hidden one that runs in free energy from underlying background zero point energy that exists in space? throughout the entire Universe.

I did those and, well I actually developed one that runs on the road vibrations picked up by the wheels transfers that to energy to drive the wheels, picking up more vibrations and well after a push start, away you go free driving. GM patented it put it on the shelf and won't even allow me to talk about it.. Oh wait...

 

[liresong]

Why would fully charging your battery impact your ability to get 300,000 miles out of the battery pack? Please explain with data or science.
If your worried about battery life, dont ever do a DC fast charge. Lv1 or Lv2 to 100% should not impact battery life.

Go ahead. Charge to 100% all the time & see if you get 300,000 miles on your battery pack. Make sure you drain the battery fast & drain the battery to zero all the time too. You’ll easily get 300,000 miles on your battery pack……NOT!

Yes, I’m planning NOT using Fast Charging, even when I’m traveling around our state. All these EV technologies are in their infant stage. Why would you continually put stress on babies?

 

[SteveWilson1983]

@liresong : Tried the method you mentioned about getting into N well in advance of a stop sign, back to back w very deliberately controlling pedal to maintain 0kW draw in L (both at highway speeds). Just from a "seat of the pants" test, I would say that is considerably better. Definitely felt like there was a considerably lower rate of deceleration in N, to the point that I clearly should have gotten out of gear earlier.
Clearly a win.

 

[ComputerDoc]

Nah, you can economically beat one-pedal driving by careful featherfooting. One pedal driving also leads to extra unnecessary stress on the battery. You unnecessarily draw energy out of the battery as you drive toward a stop AND then the battery only partially recovers the energy, when slowing. If you can judge well, you can put the car in early neutral, saving the unnecessary energy extraction stress FROM the battery with the engine engaged, AND save the stress TO the battery, as the battery recoups energy while the engine acts as a dynamo electricity producer, as the car slows down during 1 pedal driving. Yes, 2 levels of battery stress eliminated, while the car is coasting in neutral. Who would believe you can do SO MUCH by doing nothing(neutral). People who do use neutral have their eyes on making the battery last to 300,000+ miles.

Those people probably accelerate slower & drive slower, also.…..yes indeed, they are…..featherfooters.

Yes… there's a place for coasting,
I’m not confident your analysis is applicable to all scenarios ….But even if it is I AM confident I like one pedal and feel like I have easier and more precise deceleration control….without the fractional second delays of moving right foot back an forth between accelerator and brake pedal.
if… and it to me is an "if"…it costs some battery longevity it's well worth it.

And BTW, I am definitely a feather footer. Even in my ICE cars I got unusually long life, my brake pads.
It’s not a neither or: "either you are a feather footer or drive one pedal."😏

 

[Eric1704]

Yes… there's a place for coasting,
I’m not confident your analysis is applicable to all scenarios ….But even if it is I AM confident I like one pedal and feel like I have easier and more precise deceleration control….without the fractional second delays of moving right foot back an forth between accelerator and brake pedal.
if… and it to me is an "if"…it costs some battery longevity it's well worth it.

And BTW, I am definitely a feather footer. Even in my ICE cars I got unusually long life, my brake pads.
It’s not a neither or: "either you are a feather footer or drive one pedal."😏

I like the OPD as it does not use my brakes. Even in my ICE I rarely use my brakes unless I get cut off as I prefer to coast to a stop.

 

[LaughingSuperCruiser]

I like the OPD as it does not use my brakes. Even in my ICE I rarely use my brakes unless I get cut off as I prefer to coast to a stop.

I do not use OPD, but I use the regen paddle almost exclusively to slow down and/or stop, so I rarely use the friction brakes as well.

 

[LaughingSuperCruiser]

.But even if it is I AM confident I like one pedal and feel like I have easier and more precise deceleration control….without the fractional second delays of moving right foot back an forth between accelerator and brake pedal.

I use the regen paddle for slowing and stopping. I keep my fingers on it while holding the wheel, so there is no delay in applying "brakes". Plus, it's all regen.

 

[douggeorge24]

Hi. I was driving today and noticed that the one pedal braking was lagging by 3 to 4 seconds. When I took my foot off the accelerator pedal I would see the regen on the screen but the car would not slow down. I used the extra one by the steering wheel too and it would not do anything. A couple of times I had to intervene and brake manually as I could not wait 3 to 4 seconds. Then I started another trip and it seems to work fine. Still under 1K miles. Could the cold weather affect it? Probably should not as it is basically stopping the motor itself.
Thanks a lot in advance.

There are a number of reasons that are normal when regen does not work. The first reason is that regen charge is changing the kinetic energy to electrical energy and storing it in the HV battery. If the battery is above approx 80%, regen does not engage because there is not enough room in the battery to store the recovered energy. Another reason is cold weather or weather that is too hot. The HV battery temperature must be within the optimal range to accept a charge. When the temperature is too cold, the vehicle waits for the battery to warm up before dumping electrical charge into it, also, if it's too hot, the vehicle waits until the battery cools down before allowing the energy transfer. These are the two main normal reasons why regen does not engage, but there are others. Those reasons I believe are listed in the owner's manual and on the brochures, and I think also on the Chevy website, as well as in the service information.

 

[ARob]

There are a number of reasons that are normal when regen does not work. The first reason is that regen charge is changing the kinetic energy to electrical energy and storing it in the HV battery. If the battery is above approx 80%, regen does not engage because there is not enough room in the battery to store the recovered energy. Another reason is cold weather or weather that is too hot. The HV battery temperature must be within the optimal range to accept a charge. When the temperature is too cold, the vehicle waits for the battery to warm up before dumping electrical charge into it, also, if it's too hot, the vehicle waits until the battery cools down before allowing the energy transfer. These are the two main normal reasons why regen does not engage, but there are others. Those reasons I believe are listed in the owner's manual and on the brochures, and I think also on the Chevy website, as well as in the service information.

Agreed, but 90%, not 80%. Thus, Hilltop Reserve in 2017-2018 models which was the only way to limit top end to 90%, so you could enjoy full regen in the AM if you live at the top of a hill.