[D_Spear]

I think the wiring insulation probably melted and it shorted and drew more than 50A for a time. What if it somehow shorted and only managed to draw 40A continuous through it's 15A (maybe 30A-rated) wiring? That wouldn't trip the breaker. How would that turn out? It's a good thing it tripped the breaker... it may not have happened that way.

Look, you can do whatever you want. This is just a very rare counterexample of, "Oh, it doesn't draw more than 12A"... only it can if something catastrophically bad happens. And that might lead to a fire. Our neighbors across the pond fuse their plugs because they use high amperage (30A+) circuits for their normal outlets. This is an example of why they do that.

I agree though, I do not condone anything that has been said on this post with the hacks, I firmly believe on doing everything correct and complaint with code. But I do like throwing out info

 

[enslay]

It’s important to note, the charger likely didn’t pull 50 amps, the wire actually did.

This has been the entire reason I've been talking about this precaution for the past week. The wire.

 

[D_Spear]

This has been the entire reason I've been talking about this precaution for the past week. The wire.

I agree that doing some of the things on here is not correct but I can likely say this incident was because of the poor condition of the wire, not because of the hack that was done. I’d say that guy was lucky, I’m sure if the house burnt down the insurance company would like to know who ran 240 volts to a 120v listed load though

 

[enslay]

I agree that doing some of the things on here is not correct but I can likely say this incident was because of the poor condition of the wire, not because of the hack that was done. I’d say that guy was lucky, I’m sure if the house burnt down the insurance company would like to know who ran 240 volts to a 120v listed load though

If it was 15A 240V, it probably wouldn't look as bad. Or maybe 30A 240V because @CZroe suggested that the wires/handle were copied from a 30A EVSE.

 

[CZroe]

… Or maybe 30A 240V because @CZroe suggested that the wires/handle were copied from a 30A EVSE.

Well, it’s a 16A EVSE but ClipperCreek and Underwriter’s Laboratory both deem it safe on a 30A circuit since their 16A AmazingE comes with a NEMA 14-30 and is Listed/certified. Doesn’t mean it’s safe for a 30A load, of course. Since the stock 12A EVSE has the same cable it should not be any more of a concern on a 30A circuit… so your suggestion of a 30A breaker was right in line with that.

NEC explicitly allows using a 40A breaker for a NEMA 14-50. Not sure how they feel about a 30A breaker with a 50A socket but if we aren’t bound by code and are adapting the stock EVSE against code anyway, why not?

 

[NortonCommando]

But it probably wouldn't have caught fire if it wasn't pulling 50+ amps. ...

But if this was with the stock Bolt EVSE it was only using 12A.
Note: The EVSE tells the car's OBC how much to suck it up. That's how EVSE 'control' the current.

I don't know kind of circuit the author had, but they were running the Bolt's EVSE with a 240V adapter. So I'm guessing a 240V on a > 15amp circuit? The author reports that the circuit breaker did trip, but not until after the handle caught fire. It probably wouldn't have caught fire if it was on a 240V 15amp circuit like with a 6-15 outlet. ...

Smoky situations like this can happen at way less than 12A if there is damage to the wires or bad crimps at the EVSE sockets or loose pin grip at the sockets, etc, ect....

Circuit breakers are there to protect the wires in the walls. PERIOD.
They don't care if your dingleberry is pulling 12A and starting to smoke.

And yeah that picture looks like he beat that fire out with a flat piece of wood or something..
And he managed to break his orange flap on the DC pins....

 

[NortonCommando]

...If the extra impedance of the high-resistance frayed cable caused the 15A breaker to trip first, well, it still didn’t save the EVSE.

Right.
But why and how does the EVSE internal GFCI play into this scenario?
If it was just one of the conductors that was producing the heat and the EVSE was telling the car's OBC to draw only 12A, that conductor possibly finally melted through to the other power wire and there was an instantaneous short, then the building CB handled by tripping.
Although I would think the EVSE should also try to shut down the charge,, maybe,, I guess this is not a 'Ground Fault' situation.

 

[NortonCommando]

If it was 15A 240V, it probably wouldn't look as bad. .

NO, the EVSE was only allowing the car to draw 12A at 240V or 120V.
12A can cause a lot of damage....

I still question the Voltage rating on the stock EVSE wire used on the J1772 side.
I don't have a stock Bolt EVSE.
(The dealer dogs sprang that tidbit on me when I arrived at the LA dealership.)
I have an kit made L1/L2 set to 16A on 240V and a cheapo amazon 16A L1/L2.
(Both operate at 12A when on 120V because the Bolt is in 'charge' of that setting.)
One has a '300V' rated wire, the other has '600V' rated wire.
This related to the insulation and not the wire gauge.
More fuel for the P'men to discuss....

 

[enslay]

NO, the EVSE was only allowing the car to draw 12A at 240V or 120V.

It was on a 50A circuit that tripped. So it drew more than 12A. It doesn't matter if the EVSE or the car were still drawing 12A. Enough amperage was passing to trip the breaker. What matters is the weakest link: The wiring. The EVSE's wire is not rated to deal with 50A of current (and neither is the jerry-rigged adapter). It is completely irrelevant to ignore this because it would still melt under normal operation on 120V. That is not the point.

 

[CZroe]

Right.
But why and how does the EVSE internal GFCI play into this scenario?
If it was just one of the conductors that was producing the heat and the EVSE was telling the car's OBC to draw only 12A, that conductor possibly finally melted through to the other power wire and there was an instantaneous short, then the building CB handled by tripping.
Although I would think the EVSE should also try to shut down the charge,, maybe,, I guess this is not a 'Ground Fault' situation.

I guess it mostly helps with a high-impedance short instead of a dead short. High impedance shorts get hot if the resistive load it’s shorting through can’t take it. I see that some EVSEs will cut the circuit with even a 20mA imbalance to ground while a non-GFCI breaker will need a lot more than that, so that’s a scenario where the internal GFCI would help. It’s likely that the melting happened between hots or inside one bad wire.

 

[CZroe]

It was on a 50A circuit that tripped. So it drew more than 12A. It doesn't matter if the EVSE or the car were still drawing 12A. Enough amperage was passing to trip the breaker. What matters is the weakest link: The wiring. The EVSE's wire is not rated to deal with 50A of current (and neither is the jerry-rigged adapter). It is completely irrelevant to ignore this because it would still melt under normal operation on 120V. That is not the point.

Likely not for any significant amount of time. Perhaps momentarily. If it tripped from a 100A dead short then the melting happened prior to that because that kind of short alone would’ve tripped instantly with more localized damage (no time to heat significantly). However, 12A through a frayed cable can certainly get hot enough.

 

[D_Spear]

It was on a 50A circuit that tripped. So it drew more than 12A. It doesn't matter if the EVSE or the car were still drawing 12A. Enough amperage was passing to trip the breaker. What matters is the weakest link: The wiring. The EVSE's wire is not rated to deal with 50A of current (and neither is the jerry-rigged adapter). It is completely irrelevant to ignore this because it would still melt under normal operation on 120V. That is not the point.

The wire received more than 50amps, you can find the formula for the amount of amps and how long it took to trip the breaker for that depending on exactly what happened but we are talking 100ths of a millisecond. No wire is rated for a dead short amps wise but because the breaker trips so fast, there usually isn’t any damage besides from the arc flash where it shorted. I’ve shorted many things in the past, only 120v, nothing never higher than that, and the wire is always fine. You usually just cut back a few inches and you’re good to go.

 

[Sean Nelson]

I’m sure if the house burnt down the insurance company would like to know who ran 240 volts to a 120v listed load though

Insurance companies are worried about fraud, not incompetence. If they were worried about the latter, then car insurance would be useless for a pretty sizeable chunk of the population. Can you imagine being hit by a drunk and not being able to get compensation because his insurance company refused to cover it? The company will pay, although they will probably choose to jack up his rates or even not reinsure him the next time.

 

[D_Spear]

Insurance companies are worried about fraud, not incompetence. If they were worried about the latter, then car insurance would be useless for a pretty sizeable chunk of the population. Can you imagine being hit by a drunk and not being able to get compensation because his insurance company refused to cover it? The company will pay, although they will probably choose to jack up his rates or even not reinsure him the next time.

they are worried about a few things, fraud yes but they do try to find out who’s responsible so that said person can pay for it. I’ll admit, when a homeowner does something wrong or not to code, I’m sure insurance will still pay but they will find ways for someone else to pay, especially when a company is involved. In my line of work, if you make a mistake, not follow code or improperly install something and a fire happens, the insurance company will sue for collection. I suspect if this homeowners house burnt down, insurance company would likely drop them and never insure them again and yes to get a new policy would be costly for said person.

 

[enslay]

The wire received more than 50amps, you can find the formula for the amount of amps and how long it took to trip the breaker for that depending on exactly what happened but we are talking 100ths of a millisecond. No wire is rated for a dead short amps wise but because the breaker trips so fast, there usually isn’t any damage besides from the arc flash where it shorted. I’ve shorted many things in the past, only 120v, nothing never higher than that, and the wire is always fine. You usually just cut back a few inches and you’re good to go.

And if a short had enough resistance to draw less than 50amps but more than the wire's rating for a prolonged period of time? No? That's not possible? All or nothing? I don't believe you.

 

[enslay]

they are worried about a few things, fraud yes but they do try to find out who’s responsible so that said person can pay for it. I’ll admit, when a homeowner does something wrong or not to code, I’m sure insurance will still pay but they will find ways for someone else to pay, especially when a company is involved. In my line of work, if you make a mistake, not follow code or improperly install something and a fire happens, the insurance company will sue for collection. I suspect if this homeowners house burnt down, insurance company would likely drop them and never insure them again and yes to get a new policy would be costly for said person.

Drop them? That seems hard to believe. I have neighbors who got tens and tens and tens of thousand of dollars worth of free roofs for tiny amounts of damage and they're still insured with the same premiums (so they say). Somehow the roofing companies persuaded the insurance companies that the tiny damage couldn't be repaired without introducing more damage. Sure wish I got a free roof.

 

[D_Spear]

And if a short had enough resistance to draw less than 50amps but more than the wire's rating for a prolonged period of time? No? That's not possible? All or nothing? I don't believe you.

I’m not going to say that’s not possible but in the real world it’s highly unlikely. I have seen a single strand of #12 strand THHN wire poke out and hit a grounded box and that instantly trips the breaker. You’re talking a strand that is probably a 32nd of an inch. Now if something isn’t properly grounded or let’s say the resistance to ground is very high.Then yes it could be possible. The reason resistance to ground could be high is because of loose ground connections over a very long distance, within a home this is very unlikely. Within an industrial environment, where a building can be 1m+ square feet, this is where this can happen most.

 

[D_Spear]

Drop them? That seems hard to believe. I have neighbors who got tens and tens and tens of thousand of dollars worth of free roofs for tiny amounts of damage and they're still insured with the same premiums (so they say). Somehow the roofing companies persuaded the insurance companies that the tiny damage couldn't be repaired without introducing more damage. Sure wish I got a free roof.

You are comparing two different thing though. An act of god, which is completely out of thier hands and negligence. Both are very different but let me tell you doing too many act of god claims can get you dropped too. I got my free roof 6 years ago because of a massive hail storm and I know if I have to do another claim I’ll be dropped. It’s a matter of profit for insurance companies.

 

[enslay]

I’m not going to say that’s not possible but in the real world it’s highly unlikely. I have seen a single strand of #12 strand THHN wire poke out and hit a grounded box and that instantly trips the breaker. You’re talking a strand that is probably a 32nd of an inch. Now if something isn’t properly grounded or let’s say the resistance to ground is very high.Then yes it could be possible. The reason resistance to ground could be high is because of loose ground connections over a very long distance, within a home this is very unlikely. Within an industrial environment, where a building can be 1m+ square feet, this is where this can happen most.

While we can't know this happened to the reddit author, what if in the process of melting the wire insulation inside of the power cord or EVSE cord melted just enough to short with some resistance initially before a so-called dead short happened?

One of the reddit comments claims (I haven't created an account yet to look myself) some of the UL tests considers draping cheesecloth on the EVSE electronics to create short circuit conditions. If the cheesecloth catches fire, the test fails. The tests define parameters such as the breaker amperage. I imagine the cheesecloth would more often catch fire if the device was used on higher amperage breakers than it was designed for. If the Bolt's EVSE is the same as some other 30A EVSE, using it on a 50A breaker probably exceeds the testing parameters of its UL certification. I only mention this because ClipperCreek's reputation and UL certification have been leveraged in favor of the Bolt's EVSE on 240V circuits. It seems like it's perfectly safe on 240V using lower amperage circuits.

You can read this comment for yourself here. Let me know what you think.

 

[ARob]

You are comparing two different thing though. An act of god, which is completely out of thier hands and negligence. Both are very different but let me tell you doing too many act of god claims can get you dropped too. I got my free roof 6 years ago because of a massive hail storm and I know if I have to do another claim I’ll be dropped. It’s a matter of profit for insurance companies.

Historically, underwriters consider 3 years.

Company records tend to purge over time. The 3 year practice may come from DMV records for auto insurance, which were typically 3 years for tix and accidents, 7 for DUI and other "major" infractions. Auto insurance kind of set the standard for regulators to expect similar claims history for legitimizing company actions. While it may now be more acceptable to regulators to consider a longer period (I was an underwriter for 16 years, but changed careers in 1999), it is probably only a consideration if there is a lot of claims history for all lines of insurance they write for the customer, or if background reports (CLUE reports What Is a C.L.U.E Report and Its Impact on Your Insurance) show a propensity to file claims.

Also, if there are other risk factors such as poor upkeep, adjusters will note that on claims.

The practice of underwriting is one of balancing a lot of factors, and judgement plays a huge role. Claims are both good and bad in the insurers mind. Good because the expectation of claims justifies rates, bad because so many people mistakenly view insurance as an entitlement and file claims often instead of carefully maintaining property or driving. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the argument about paying more premiums than collected in claims with the aura of expecting it to balance. The flip to that is if an insurer has to pay hundreds of thousands, or millions on your behalf, should they be entitled to recover that? Of course not.