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Folks,


Time for a "get off my lawn" rant... :laugh:


I'm in the greater Denver area, and the DEN airport provides 20 free charging-enabled parking spots (L1& L2). They also provide preferential parking for non-plug-in Hybrid Vehicles.


Which is great. But, with more Plug-In-Hybrid vehicles becoming available, less spots are available for 100% electric vehicles.


I wrote the airport an email that explained the challenge: If an ICE / Hybrid vehicle can't plug in, no problem, they can still get home. If a 100% electric low-on-charge can't plug in, problem. Possibly serious problem (!!!) that would require that driver to find alternate transportation and/or a tow of their vehicle.


It kind of chaps my ass: an ICE/Hybrid that gets 20 or 30 (maybe 50... I'm looking at you, Volt owners) miles on their battery can park and take a spot... their charge may take a few hours on L2, but that parking spot is taken for days. And I'm scrambling to find a spot, if I'm lucky.


Right now, they are not going to differentiate between the two, however the official response that I received was that when they expand their charge-enabled parking spot infrastructure over the next year, they will consider adding spots that are dedicated to "100% Electric Parking Only".


Just in time for the Tesla Model 3 to take up more 100% electric spots. :eek:


Yes, maybe it's just me... I like the fact that I can get that free charge and it can last me most of the week. :)


Do we need to find a way to have people understand the real difference between Hybrid and Electric? Is it just me? Have you seen this? Thoughts?
 

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This is why many are against free charging. Spots are less likely to be available for those that need a charge.

Drove the Fit EV (82 mi EPA) to the airport yesterday. The Economy Lot has 2 sets of L1 charging stations (12 per). All were full (first time for that. It's been close with only 1 or 2 spots left on other trips). About a third of the vehicles were PHEV's. About 25% were Tesla's that most likely don't have to have a charge to get home. Also a Bolt that very likely did not (edit for original intent) have to charge to get home.

According to my app and the dash display, I'm sitting at 51% SOC and will likely need to stop for a ~15 min L2 somewhere to get home.

Do I have greater right to charge than PHEV's or long(er) range EV's (like the Bolt)? Nope.

We'll likely start taking the hybrid when the weather puts the round trip out of range or borderline like this trip. If there was a nominal fee to charge, it is much more likely that there would be open spots. But each of those L1 units would require internet access, a fob, app or credit card slot to accept payment, and a fee to someone to process that payment.

Another solution is more than 1 spot sharing each EVSE. Easily half were showing finished charging (indicator lights on them make it obvious). The rep from Telefonix encouraged the Port of Portland to set them up this way, but for a variety of reasons they decided not to. They didn't want the conflict of "someone unplugged me before I was done". There are enough inconsiderate EV drivers out there to make it an issue, and as our ranks grow, it will only get worse.

 

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Yes, maybe it's just me... I like the fact that I can get that free charge and it can last me most of the week. :)


Do we need to find a way to have people understand the real difference between Hybrid and Electric? Is it just me? Have you seen this? Thoughts?
It is you, who is the problem! You think it is okay for hybrid cars to burn more petrol the necessary, so you can have convenient parking and free of charge charging (which apparently, you do not even need). How selfish and counter productive is that?

Please do not take offense. It is just another way of looking at the same issue ;)

Yet another way of looking at it is this: if an EV driver was not sure he could make it back home, he would not have gone there. So, there is not much to gain / loose. For a hybrid driver, it is a different story.

And yes, I was a hybrid driver until three months ago >:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yet another way of looking at it is this: if an EV driver was not sure he could make it back home, he would not have gone there. So, there is not much to gain / loose. For a hybrid driver, it is a different story.
I think you are making an assumption of altruism that likely isn't there.


They are looking to get the money-saving gain for which they bought their car... so I get that. Maybe it's a case of an Electric Animal Farm: All electric plug in vehicles are equal, but some are more equal than others. >:)


And yes, @DucRider, in my suggestion email to the airport, I did state that they could add charging to their reserved parking section, with a small increase of fee for the reserved charging. I would spring for an extra charge for a charge. :)
 

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Airports are a whole different animal when it comes to public charging. Unlike with public charging stations at retail outlets (grocery stores, shopping malls, etc), people usually aren't parked at those locations for more than a couple of hours. But at airports, it is often the case that people are gone for days at a time. Even a fully depleted Model S 100D will have its battery charged full in less than a day. So if that owner is gone for a week, that's 6 days the charging station is effectively tied up. Dinky 11 mile Gen 1 Prius Plug-in or Tesla 100D, after less than a day the charging station will be rendered useless until that owner returns.

So basically, it doesn't matter what kind of car is plugged into an airport L2, plugin hybrid or BEV. The same problem exists no matter what. So moral of the story is: don't rely on airports for public charging (or rely on public charging in general). And all plug-ins should feel free to use airport L2's, PHEV or BEV.
 

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Folks,


Time for a "get off my lawn" rant... :laugh:


I'm in the greater Denver area, and the DEN airport provides 20 free charging-enabled parking spots (L1& L2). They also provide preferential parking for non-plug-in Hybrid Vehicles.


Which is great. But, with more Plug-In-Hybrid vehicles becoming available, less spots are available for 100% electric vehicles.


I wrote the airport an email that explained the challenge: If an ICE / Hybrid vehicle can't plug in, no problem, they can still get home. If a 100% electric low-on-charge can't plug in, problem. Possibly serious problem (!!!) that would require that driver to find alternate transportation and/or a tow of their vehicle.


It kind of chaps my ass: an ICE/Hybrid that gets 20 or 30 (maybe 50... I'm looking at you, Volt owners) miles on their battery can park and take a spot... their charge may take a few hours on L2, but that parking spot is taken for days. And I'm scrambling to find a spot, if I'm lucky.


Right now, they are not going to differentiate between the two, however the official response that I received was that when they expand their charge-enabled parking spot infrastructure over the next year, they will consider adding spots that are dedicated to "100% Electric Parking Only".


Just in time for the Tesla Model 3 to take up more 100% electric spots. :eek:


Yes, maybe it's just me... I like the fact that I can get that free charge and it can last me most of the week. :)


Do we need to find a way to have people understand the real difference between Hybrid and Electric? Is it just me? Have you seen this? Thoughts?
I see it all the time with destination charging in Santa Cruz. While it doesn't make me happy to see a charging spot taken by a plug-in hybrid, they have the same right I do to the spot. What makes me see red (for BEV as well) is when the spot is occupied and the vehicle is completely charged. All our local chargers have external status lights, so you can tell from a distance when a car has finished charging, and you don't have to understand a myriad of flash codes to know what's what. I've never met a BEV owner that didn't know what their SOC was, and how fast they could juice up. It stretches credibility that a given driver wouldn't know when their car was going to be at full charge, so they could return and repark as appropriate.

That being said, you shouldn't ever cut it co close that you depend on a free charge to get home.

When I fly SFO, I park at a place (ParkSFO) that offers charging as part of valet (indoor and outdoor). They take care of platooning cars through their charging spots, and I always have a full battery on returning from a trip. It looks like Canopy Parking at DIA will do the same thing. Just not for free.
 

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How many of you would be comfortable parking your EV in a pay-to-park lot with an attendant? He/she would keep the key the key/fob and move your vehicle when charged. No matter how you slice the hybrid/BEV dilemma, it boils down to moving your vehicle when the charge is done (whether full or not). When you lock your car, you lock up the space. Even if the adjacent space can be reached by the plug, you still need a system/person to move the plug from one vehicle to the next. An airport is one of the rare non-home Level-1 charging that makes sense (for the reasons stated above). I agree that electricity does NOT need to be free, just freely accessible. A "for pay" park/charge lot may be the solution. But you cannot park at the Level-2 plug for the entire 3-5 days you are gone. Level-3 EVSE for "travelers" who stop to charge/eat/get-on-the-road-again; Level-2 (destination) EVSE for home and where you stop overnight (motels, State Parks, etc.); Level-1 EVSE for airports (long-term parking), monthly garage parking space renters, and (in cold climates) at parking meters (BYO EVSE - $0.25 per hour which turns the outlet on) to keep your battery warm.
 

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This is why many are against free charging. Spots are less likely to be available for those that need a charge.
Exactly. Trying to distinguish between who needs a charge and who doesn't is a fools errand, since there are plenty of pure battery electric vehicles with long range and lots of juice in the tank that don't really need a charge either.

Price is the best way to sort out the opportunists from the truly motivated.
 

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I've always thought that EV charging should be placed at the back of a lot, as far away from the entrance as possible. If airports did this, then perhaps PHEVs would choose the convenience of a closer parking spot than a little juice.

The best solution is likely to eliminate free charging and collect a small fee. People in PHEVs wouldn't want to spend $5 to charge their small battery, but an EV driver who relies on it would be happy to pay.

That said, I have never publicly charged my Prius plug-in. Once in Vegas there was a wall of open spots with not a single car at them in an otherwise full garage, and I still parked several blocks away from the hotel, outside in the sun, just in case EVs needed the spot. In hindsight, I'd probably just plug in next time.
 

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Out of curiosity, do you know something that I don't? :confused:
Going out on a limb that he was making an assumption (likely a valid one) that the majority of those Tesla owners had more than enough charge to get home even if they could not charge at the airport. Of course one could make the same assumption of a Bolt owner and it would be true most of the time as well.
 

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Out of curiosity, do you know something that I don't? /forum/images/smilies/confused.gif
Going out on a limb that he was making an assumption (likely a valid one) that the majority of those Tesla owners had more than enough charge to get home even if they could not charge at the airport. Of course one could make the same assumption of a Bolt owner and it would be true most of the time as well.
That was exactly my point. Why would the Tesla's be able to make it home and not the Bolt?
 

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The whole issue is a bit silly, because how are we to know who needs a charge and who doesn't? A BEV with plenty of range left to get home is no different than PHEV occupying a charging spot. What if the PHEV is nearly out of gas and needs EV to make it to a gas station? I've run out of gas several times and only made it to a station on battery power.

As I said, the right way to regulate something is to assign the right fee to it. Those who most value the charging opportunity will be most likely to pay (or walk a long distance from their parking spot).

That was exactly my point. Why would the Tesla's be able to make it home and not the Bolt?
The Bolt has further to go?
 

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Drove the Fit EV (82 mi EPA) to the airport yesterday.....

This photo jumps out at me as the epitome of foolish design. Chargers backed up to a fence??? WTH???

With a second row of parking behind the chargers there is some chance a thoughtful owner could leave a note online or a Post-It "OK to disconnect me when full" so two cars on the far side of the charger could then use the cable.

Better yet, in an ideal world, at the airport the EV owner could leave a Post-It on the charger, or equivalent online: "Returning Thursday evening. Will someone departing please plug me in before Noon Thursday?"
 

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Exactly. Trying to distinguish between who needs a charge and who doesn't is a fools errand, since there are plenty of pure battery electric vehicles with long range and lots of juice in the tank that don't really need a charge either.

Price is the best way to sort out the opportunists from the truly motivated.
But why shouldn't opportunists be allowed to charge at the free locations? Are they at a lower ethical level than someone who planned poorly? To sort them out, you'd have to make the price of charging higher than their price at home, which can be pretty high in California. Certainly more than a trivial amount. There are plenty of for-fee L2 stations where I live, and they are never full.

Some might argue that the charge would be regressive, since well-heeled Tesla, Porsche and Audi drivers aren't going to care, and will still hog the spots, leaving out the lowly Leaf buyers.

In any case, if EVs are successful, this problem will be transitory. There will be so many EVs that free public charging will essentially never be available, and people will have to plan on not having it. Those of us that use it now, should expect it to go away. I happen to be lucky in this regard. Based on my JuiceNet account, I've put in 600kW in 14 months at home(17k miles driven). The rest has been free public charging, or at the airport. But I'm well aware the gravy train is going to end soon, especially if Elon sorts out his problems.
 

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Airports are a whole different animal when it comes to public charging. Unlike with public charging stations at retail outlets (grocery stores, shopping malls, etc), people usually aren't parked at those locations for more than a couple of hours. But at airports, it is often the case that people are gone for days at a time. Even a fully depleted Model S 100D will have its battery charged full in less than a day. So if that owner is gone for a week, that's 6 days the charging station is effectively tied up. Dinky 11 mile Gen 1 Prius Plug-in or Tesla 100D, after less than a day the charging station will be rendered useless until that owner returns.

So basically, it doesn't matter what kind of car is plugged into an airport L2, plugin hybrid or BEV. The same problem exists no matter what. So moral of the story is: don't rely on airports for public charging (or rely on public charging in general). And all plug-ins should feel free to use airport L2's, PHEV or BEV.
Or sequester chargers in long term parking to valet situations. This essentially creates a pay wall, part of which goes to making sure everyone gets reasonable access to the resource.
 

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This photo jumps out at me as the epitome of foolish design. Chargers backed up to a fence??? WTH???
Imagine this setup:



24 inside EV charging spaces + 64 outside EV charging spaces - total 88 EV charging spaces.
Each space has it's own charging cable. 88 EV's can be plugged in simultaneously.

The logic isn't the number of EVSE chargers, the better logic is 1 "smart" EVSE per 8 (or more) cables (Cables are cheap), or 88 cheap EVSE's that can act smart as one. Where as many as 8 EV's share the same EVSE and are not charging concurrently, but consecutively. The main EVSE knows when any of it's connected ports have completed their charge (either to full or to the owners specified time/cost), thus de-energizing a completed charge, and energizing the next EV in the queue. In this scenario 88 EV's can be parked, but only 10 DCFC EVSE's needed. Or some combination of Level-2 and Level-3 charging stations.

The industry is so strung out on making EV charging stations look like gas station pumps it's ridiculous.


EV's have more in common with smartphones than ICEv's. How stupid it would be to have Smartphone charging stations in an Airport look like Phone Booths??? This same 100kW DCFC pictured above will charge 2 Level-3 EV's consecutively. Why can't it charge 8 consecutively? It can, (with a some simple code and a more complex cabling interfaces), but it won't Because they built it for optics (looks like a gas station pump, duh!).

Pricing can be tiered based on EV owner priority. i.e., if a EV owner know they will be parked all day (or multiple days), they get the lowest cost. If another EV owner is in a rush, and needs the fastest possible charge rate ASAP; Premium cost.

The illustration is based on a now defunct (I think) startup called EVOasis that intended to recycle unused gas station lots. So that image is about the ground footprint of a small corner gas station.

The idea of using Smart EVSE's was explored here last year as the optimum use case for multi-tenant housing. So many, many renters can come home, plug in without having to go back out, un plug, and move their EV. I have 2 JuiceBox 40 Pro's that are both connected to the same 40Amp plug in a load sharing arrangement. So no need to unplug one EV in the garage to plug in the next.

88 JuiceBox Pro 75C's (75A) cost less than 3 dual port DCFC's pictured above. For $150K in EVSE hardware (the cost of ONE fully loaded Tesla X), perhaps another $250K in custom cabling, Power switching, & software development, Plumbing in 400Amp/3-phase power, and whatever the property cost are (if any...an Airport would likely grant an EV charging operator the top level of a parking garage to deploy this concept).

OK!! Who's with me on this investment in this start up??! I'm sure you all want to put your money where your mouths are, right?
 

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This photo jumps out at me as the epitome of foolish design. Chargers backed up to a fence??? WTH???
Most EV chargers are installed by people who have no actual experience with EVs.

The place I parked and charged at yesterday, they have 4 chargers right next to each other (bad) at the back of the parking lot (good).

The real problem is that there are a lot of old apartment buildings all around here with little to no parking for residents. The two times I've charged here there were 3 cars parked there at the beginning of the day were still there at the end, pretty sure they are all parked there for 12+ hours possibly longer than that.

At least there are two extra spots bookending the 4 charger spots, I'm pretty sure this is an accident but in any case it allows for a little bit of flexibility which I used when the Leaf parked at one end wasn't even plugged in. Interesting when I came back ~4 hours later the Leaf was gone and there was an i3 there who had unplugged me and plugged themselves in (all good since I finished charging about 20 minutes prior)
 

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I had a Volt driver unplug my Bolt ; there was only one charger. That was pretty lame. However, I did have enough charge to get home. I was an adjacent county about 65 miles from home so it wasn't a major problem but it left a lasting impression. Thankfully, however, that was the only time it's happened. I've unplugged a Leaf on a couple of occasions when they were done charging. It's pretty easy to tell because they have the dash LEDs.
 
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