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Sure, but you want incentive for the person to leave when their car is tapering toward the end of the charge to free the stall. Perhaps if the car has a flat fee per minute based on the maximum charging capability, it would provide the proper incentives to leave when charging slows to a trickle.

I'd like to see Uber-like rates, where the fee varies depending on if there is available chargers or not.
 

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Sit down, because I agree with redpoint.

Coulomb, I like where you're going but it seems difficult in practice.
If we use a gasoline analogy, you're saying a pickup truck who's going to take on 40 gals should pay a different price (per gallon and/or including an imaginary "time at the pump" fee) than a motorcycle that's going to take on 2 gals. The store makes more profit selling to the pickup because it moved more product, but the time at the pump may be in either's favor, especially if the pickup pays at the pump and the motorcycle goes inside and uses the bathroom and pays inside.

Similarly, in a restaurant, should a restaurant charge a seat fee in addition to the food fee, ie should a person eating alone at a table that seats 4 pay more for the 3 empty seats than an equivalent family of 4? [I always tip heavier when alone to partially make up for any perceived difference, but that's a different discussion.]

I agree that a car is both occupying the spot/cord and consuming power, so there's sort of two costs to be addressed. However, there are plenty of lines/queues in real life and for the most part, people just wait their turn. If there's a grandma in front of me ordering food for 7 little misbehaving urchins and is unfamiliar with the menu, she will take longer to order, but I don't expect to pay less because I had to wait.

I have never used the DC charge and I recently needed to, but it was soo cold that the speed would have been slower than AC. So, I didn't use DC and drove the Volt instead of the Bolt. Any pricing model should take temperature into account, and a $/kwh does but $/min does not.

I would be ok with costs that vary based on TOU electric costs and with some amount to recover the capital spent on the charger, but here they're already priced high enough that they're a last resort, only if you're desperate.
 

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I thought of an interesting way in which public charging providers could set up a pricing model that works for a variety of vehicles across a variety of chargers. They could set up a fee schedule based on demand charges (essentially, charging the EV owner based on the kW rate that their EV supports).

https://youtu.be/5x8M6Wjc26I
I really enjoyed this plugside chat! Your idea is brilliant because we're getting screwed compared to cars in the near future that will have a much faster "fast" charging rate. It seems like the pricing model just favors the newer better EVSE charge rates and the current plans are not really making sense for us compared to just having a very economical gas car which in many cases would be cheaper.

Ok how about we get someone to write a bill for the EV Charging Bill of Rights! We demand a fair and equitable charging rate structure.
 

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I really enjoyed this plugside chat! Your idea is brilliant because we're getting screwed compared to cars in the near future that will have a much faster "fast" charging rate. It seems like the pricing model just favors the newer better EVSE charge rates and the current plans are not really making sense for us compared to just having a very economical gas car which in many cases would be cheaper.

Ok how about we get someone to write a bill for the EV Charging Bill of Rights! We demand a fair and equitable charging rate structure.
Thankfully most of us early adopters charge at home 95% of the time. I suspect that as EVs with faster charging rates hit the market those people who need DCFC charging for their long-distance commutes will either trade in their current models or will keep those older, slower charging EVs as a second vehicle for around town while getting a newer EV for their commute/travel needs.
 

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OK, finally watched your video and it sounds like a good idea. I wonder if it still runs up against the same legal problems some locations have with the fee being based on kWh? Some laws essentially state that you can't bill by kWh because they aren't a utility. Likewise, a demand fee is used by utilities, so it might carry the same legal issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Sit down, because I agree with redpoint.

Coulomb, I like where you're going but it seems difficult in practice.
If we use a gasoline analogy, you're saying a pickup truck who's going to take on 40 gals should pay a different price (per gallon and/or including an imaginary "time at the pump" fee) than a motorcycle that's going to take on 2 gals. The store makes more profit selling to the pickup because it moved more product, but the time at the pump may be in either's favor, especially if the pickup pays at the pump and the motorcycle goes inside and uses the bathroom and pays inside.

Similarly, in a restaurant, should a restaurant charge a seat fee in addition to the food fee, ie should a person eating alone at a table that seats 4 pay more for the 3 empty seats than an equivalent family of 4? [I always tip heavier when alone to partially make up for any perceived difference, but that's a different discussion.]

I agree that a car is both occupying the spot/cord and consuming power, so there's sort of two costs to be addressed. However, there are plenty of lines/queues in real life and for the most part, people just wait their turn. If there's a grandma in front of me ordering food for 7 little misbehaving urchins and is unfamiliar with the menu, she will take longer to order, but I don't expect to pay less because I had to wait.
Should a customer pay as much for a 10 Mb/s internet service as a customer who has 100 Mb/s service? Should a person pay as much for two-course combo meal as someone who bought a three-course combo meal?
 

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Should a customer pay as much for a 10 Mb/s internet service as a customer who has 100 Mb/s service? Should a person pay as much for two-course combo meal as someone who bought a three-course combo meal?
That's an somewhat interesting set of questions. I think the more interesting question is should someone pay less for 100 Mb/s internet service if their laptop can only pull 10 Mb/s from it? Because this is the real issue when it comes to demand electrical charges.

ga2500ev
 

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That's an somewhat interesting set of questions. I think the more interesting question is should someone pay less for 100 Mb/s internet service if their laptop can only pull 10 Mb/s from it? Because this is the real issue when it comes to demand electrical charges.

ga2500ev
This is exactly correct. Charging should be based on a per minute charge. If you car pulls less kW because of the technology of the car or because you are trying to charge past 80%, you should pay more. The time spent in front of the charger is the most important thing. Relating it to gasoline is silly, because you don't have to wait more than ten minutes EVER unless you are insane and like to get gas at Costco. People could charge for over an hour at a supercharger, this type of wait is not acceptable.

Not only this, but we need to charge people high fees for leaving their cars plugged in over 80% or when they finished charging. $1 a minute after your car stops charging will make people think twice. We also need to make parking in an EV stall pay fines equivalent to handicap parking spots. I said something to a truck owner in Chowchilla a few weeks ago and he wanted to fight me. I told him this was our gas station and keep them clear. I tried to be nice at first, but his entitled point of view really got on me. I told him that I took a picture and there was a $200 fine for parking in front of an EV station at the end. I make up fake policies all the time and people seem to believe them...
 

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" The time spent in front of the charger is the most important thing."

It is to someone who can afford the money more than a longer time, but not to someone with the converse situation. Although in a busy area I see your point for the need to free up the EVSE for others to use.

You could argue that those with lower charging rate vehicles are subsidizing those with higher charging rate ones by paying more for a charge rate that is greater than they can use, since lower charge rate equipment which cost less could have been installed instead and they could then be charging at a lower cost. But then those with higher charge rate vehicles would likely say why should they be held back by people with "old" lower charge rate vehicles. People weigh things differently so they have different perspectives.

Reminds me of years ago when I had the only converted car in the area with lithium batteries (there were no manufactured evs at that time other than the rare Tesla roadster). All the others in the ev club were still using lead acid batteries as people had since the 1970's so they had typical range of 30 miles or less. They kept pushing for more "opportunity charging", 120V outlets all over town so they could plug in wherever they stopped, gaining a few miles range - which was significant when you may only have 25 miles range when fully charged, and half that in winter. I on the other hand thought it was completely useless. So useless I had wired my charger so it could only charge from 208 or 240V. That's because I could drive anywhere in town or to nearby towns with my 75 mile range by just charging at home, and adding a few miles was an insignificant percentage of my range. I was pushing for more of the new "high" rate 7kW L2 EVSE so I could charge at locations 50 - 60 miles from home. Starting to sound familiar?

I think those with larger charge rate vehicles these days likely have a similar perspective (and now I am in the "old" camp with a 2018 Bolt). I've also thought for a few years now that most L2 chargers are going to become stranded assets (no longer used) as we move to 200+ mile range vehicles, because the only time you need to charge such a vehicle away from home is on a trip beyond the range of the vehicle and a DCFC will be necessary for that since it is impractical to wait for L2 to add 80% charge to that range vehicle. I expect it won't be be many years before 50kW DCFC are thought of that way. They likely are now by people who own a Tesla.

I like seeing the higher rate equipment being installed and the introduction of higher charge rate vehicles since it moves us toward making evs more convenient and therefore encourages wider use, even though my car can't make use of the higher rate, and I will only charge at them when must. I don't like paying that cost, but I think it is moving the way it needs to go, and like Tesla they will someday...someday be affordable to more people. It does bother me that the only cars that can use those high power DCFC are ones like the Porsche Taycan that only a tiny proportion of the population can afford, but at least it is moving us the right direction.
 

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Should a customer pay as much for a 10 Mb/s internet service as a customer who has 100 Mb/s service? Should a person pay as much for two-course combo meal as someone who bought a three-course combo meal?
Those answers may be both yes, especially if either is blocking a higher paying customer from consuming, as is the case with chargers.
There's two issues: Each car's ability to receive charge AND if a car is already there, that charger is occupied, so others can't use it.

It's easy to develop a model where the former can be solved (per kwh, or a proxy). The latter is the issue. From a provider perspective, you get more income the more customers are using your device. However, if you setup a rate structure for a slow charging vehicle to be interested, then your ONLY port is blocked while the slow charger is plugged in and you are prevented from getting payment from a fast charging vehicle. If my vehicle can only take 100 and the charger can give out 200, which other cars can take, the provider would like to sell 200 to everyone continuously. So, if they were to let me charge my 100, they are not selling 200 to someone else in the meantime. [I intentionally used no units.]

Selling 100 is more income than selling 0 (good), but less income than selling 200 (bad). Some providers will set their price low to bring in more customers (potentially creating lines) and some will set their price higher to bring in fewer customers, but whose average transaction is higher. If demand exceeds supply, prices will rise. Basic economics.

Think of it like an airplane that has only one seat. That one seat will be priced more like 1st class than steerage.

I tried hard to come up examples from everyday life where "more important" people get bumping privileges over regular people and, other than airlines, I couldn't. We wait in line at gas stations, restaurants, grocery stores, etc. We hope the person in front of us, who's causing us to wait, moves along quickly, but there's nothing much we can do about it. All of that happens independent of how big each person's transaction is. True, many locations have multiple registers, like a 10 item or less line, but that would mean the solution is more chargers.

Lots of people will accept waiting an hour or more for a table at a fancy restaurant, while others will go somewhere else, likely to a less fancy restaurant. Some people will wait to get gas at Costco in order to save money, others won't. If you want the "fancy experience" of charging DC and are willing to wait in line, that means they're not charging enough. Conversely, if the charger is sitting there empty, they're charging too much. If you have to wait an hour to DC charge for an hour, you could have gotten 60 miles on board at an AC charger in that time.

So, I can understand why charging stations cost is based on how much they're capable of providing, even if some vehicles can't take the charge that fast. That doesn't mean I like it.

The Uber demand pricing model is spot on, in that, it attempts to rebalance supply in times of high demand, but look at the large amount of complaints that it was unfair, predatory, price gouging, etc.
 

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Should a customer pay as much for a 10 Mb/s internet service as a customer who has 100 Mb/s service? Should a person pay as much for two-course combo meal as someone who bought a three-course combo meal?
Are there a finite number of connections that can be provided? If so it may be reasonable to charge the person using 10Mb the same as the person using 100Mb because they are still monopolizing a resource so nobody else can use it.

Back in the days of dial up Internet you paid per minute regardless of how fast your modem was, that was due in part to the fact that the ISPs had a finite number of phone lines and modems. In fact it was common in the earliest days to have "offline" mail clients where you would connect, download your mail and send any mail you had to send and then disconnect so you could read and respond to your mail when not connected.
 

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If you have to wait an hour to DC charge for an hour, you could have gotten 60 miles on board at an AC charger in that time.
All the more reason to include an L2 charger adjacent to every DCFC site, allows people who are waiting to charge at the DCFC to get some range while they wait and even better would enable people who need to charge above 80% to reach their next destination to move and free up the DCFC for someone else who can use it more efficiently.

L2 chargers are cheap to install and maintain, don't require complicated electrical service either.
 

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All the more reason to include an L2 charger adjacent to every DCFC site, allows people who are waiting to charge at the DCFC to get some range while they wait and even better would enable people who need to charge above 80% to reach their next destination to move and free up the DCFC for someone else who can use it more efficiently.

L2 chargers are cheap to install and maintain, don't require complicated electrical service either.
That is the best idea.
 

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Are DCFC given SoC info? The reason I ask is that if they do get the info, they could be programmed to stop charging at 80%, with L2 chargers available nearby to top off if needed. I suppose it doesn't matter if DCFC knows SoC, because it could simply be programmed to stop charging once it drops below some threshold like 8 kW.

Really digging that idea raitchison.
 

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Relating it to gasoline is silly, because you don't have to wait more than ten minutes EVER unless you are insane and like to get gas at Costco. People could charge for over an hour at a supercharger, this type of wait is not acceptable.
A study (real measurements) has shown that the average ICEV takes about 15 minutes (sometimes less, often more) to fill with gasoline from the time you leave your desired route until route progress is reestablished. Filling once a week {staying with the vehicle as you fill, as prescribed by law} means that you spend ~13 hours per year filling up with gas. (Filling once every 2 weeks takes ~6.5 hours/year.) Most (85-88%) EV charging is done at home, almost always at night. It takes 15 seconds to plug in in the evening and 15 seconds to unplug in the morning. Charging ~ twice a week at home takes 1 hour (陆 min/charge x 120 charges = 60 minutes) of your time. For those two trips of >600 miles which you take each year, enroute charging adds about 4 hours, for a yearly total of 5 hours! (And, you do not need to stay with your vehicle while charging, so you can eat/shop during that 鈥渆nroute charging鈥 time!) Do not compare a one-time gas fill-up to a 65 minute stop at a DCFC station.
 

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A study (real measurements) has shown that the average ICEV takes about 15 minutes (sometimes less, often more) to fill with gasoline from the time you leave your desired route until route progress is reestablished.
Do you have a link to that study because 15 minutes seems pretty high for an everyday (not on a road trip) fuel stop?

When I fuel up my ICEV on my way to work (I drive it to work once per week) it probably lengthens my trip to work by about 7 minutes, certainly less than 10.

Road trip stops take a bit longer because they also frequently involve a visit to a restroom and/or buying something from a convenience store.
 

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A study (real measurements) has shown that the average ICEV takes about 15 minutes (sometimes less, often more) to fill with gasoline from the time you leave your desired route until route progress is reestablished. Filling once a week {staying with the vehicle as you fill, as prescribed by law} means that you spend ~13 hours per year filling up with gas. (Filling once every 2 weeks takes ~6.5 hours/year.) Most (85-88%) EV charging is done at home, almost always at night. It takes 15 seconds to plug in in the evening and 15 seconds to unplug in the morning. Charging ~ twice a week at home takes 1 hour (陆 min/charge x 120 charges = 60 minutes) of your time. For those two trips of >600 miles which you take each year, enroute charging adds about 4 hours, for a yearly total of 5 hours! (And, you do not need to stay with your vehicle while charging, so you can eat/shop during that 鈥渆nroute charging鈥 time!) Do not compare a one-time gas fill-up to a 65 minute stop at a DCFC station.
I'll take a page from Eric and give a myopic account of my experience... I go approximately 100 ft out of my way to fuel up (round trip). It takes me 3 minutes to fill, and I don't care what the law says about being present (and in Oregon there are attendants). Total time to add 400 miles of range is 4 minutes.

... and it takes me about 8 seconds to plug in or remove the plug from my Prius.

I don't doubt the study though. Most people are less efficient at thing than me. Efficiency is a passion of mine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
All the more reason to include an L2 charger adjacent to every DCFC site, allows people who are waiting to charge at the DCFC to get some range while they wait and even better would enable people who need to charge above 80% to reach their next destination to move and free up the DCFC for someone else who can use it more efficiently.

L2 chargers are cheap to install and maintain, don't require complicated electrical service either.
I don't know that L2 would achieve your intended purpose because the people you would want to use it will already be squatting at the chargers at 95%, and those who don't want to wait will see little benefit from using L2 for the duration of time they would be there. Essentially, it seems like you're banking on the fact that people who should end their DCFC will (and will voluntarily move to a L2 to free up the DCFC). That hasn't been my experience.
 

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I don't know that L2 would achieve your intended purpose because the people you would want to use it will already be squatting at the chargers at 95%, and those who don't want to wait will see little benefit from using L2 for the duration of time they would be there. Essentially, it seems like you're banking on the fact that people who should end their DCFC will (and will voluntarily move to a L2 to free up the DCFC). That hasn't been my experience.
Well I'd also price my DCFC rates so you are paying $1 per minute after 45 minutes and $5 per minute after 60 minutes. Would be a pretty good motivator to get people the **** off of DCFC at >80%. Would include 2 hours of free L2 charging with every DCFC session.

Edit: Really the words that this forum censors are pretty redonkulous. FTR I used the church goers word for the place that Christian mythology says that nonbelievers go when they die. Really I think if it's a word that Ned Flanders would use it should be allowed on the forum.
 
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