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;)Looks like the Bolt might have some competition from a ghost car - the Model 3?

https://insideevs.com/new-tesla-model-3-owner-gushes/?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjc18y&refsrc=email&iid=f7591e5f19bf4ab7a0f47e7bd71b841f&uid=911285487322705920&nid=244+281088008

Are Bolt EV owners afraid of being outshone? It says "Everyone who is not Tesla should be or already is very nervous. The Model 3 is just straight up better than anything else in its class".

I think the author is referring to ICE machines, because that is what the article talks about. What do you think?
 

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;)Looks like the Bolt might have some competition from a ghost car - the Model 3?

https://insideevs.com/new-tesla-model-3-owner-gushes/?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjc18y&refsrc=email&iid=f7591e5f19bf4ab7a0f47e7bd71b841f&uid=911285487322705920&nid=244+281088008

Are Bolt EV owners afraid of being outshone? It says "Everyone who is not Tesla should be or already is very nervous. The Model 3 is just straight up better than anything else in its class".

I think the author is referring to ICE machines, because that is what the article talks about. What do you think?
I hope the M3 is a raging success. Tesla pushed the majors to start taking EVs seriously, and competition is a great thing for the segment. The better Tesla does, the harder GM, Ford, MB, Volvo and others will try to compete, and we all win.

I think I've had my Bolt since February, and my prospects for being able to purchase an M3 in less than 18 months are negligible.

I think Tesla took some interesting design risks in the M3, and I'd like to see that proven out in the real world.
 

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Why would I be afraid? I still have my Model 3 reservation and fully intended to buy it when available... the Bolt however was available now - and literally cost me nothing and one could argue Uncle Sam is going to pay me quite handsomely to drive it ... competition is a winning formula for consumers. It is so early in the EV game, can't imagine what the next 5 years is going to look like.
 

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Very few buyers of the Model 3 will receive the tax incentive. Plus, Tesla does not discount cars. It is easy to almost double the price fully loaded. The Model 3 will be way more expensive taking those two things into account.
 

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I have owned my Bolt since July and now have about 4,300 miles on it. It replaced a leased Mercedes C class a bit after the lease ended. My other vehicle is a 2015 Hyundai Genesis (my second Genesis), and its lease will be up in June 2018. I have a Tesla M3 on order and my delivery window is now in the Feb-Apr 2018 period (was Jan-March before current delays).

When it comes to luxury, fit & finish, quality of materials, the Genesis beats the Mercedes and the Bolt. When it comes to fun to drive and other intangibles, the Bolt wins. The Bolt is packed with a lot of technology and innovations but it loses to the M3 in the following areas: 1. Range (with LR battery), 2. Performance (0-60 time is better on M3), 3. Being rear wheel drive, if GM had made the Bolt rear wheel drive, offered an optional all wheel drive and employed better styling (looks live every other hatchback on the road) they would have given the M3 a serious run for the money, 4. Power seats and Homelink, 5. A real charger network equivalent to only larger and better than Tesla's, and 6. Real OTA software updates to remedy customer complaints and add enhancements.

So far, the Bolt has been a trouble free (except for minor software bugs that randomly appear and vanish) car that works very well for living in So Cal. I would consider the range in the barely adequate only because getting around in So Cal requires considerable distances and there are times I find the 200 mile range a bit short. However, like many So Cal drivers, when traffic permits we drive fast usually 75-80mph so that has a negative impact on range. The problem is you can't get in the car pool lanes and drive slower than traffic or you risk having a bunch of drivers behind you ready to kill you. They can't get out to get around you so they are stuck and not happy about it. I really like that I never have to go to a gas station as I fill it up at night with my home level 2 charger and that maintenance is for all intents and purposes zero. For a $43K+ car (premium edition) it really lacks the materials and finish that say I'm a $43K car. Why they left out things like electric seats and a Homelink garage door opener, better visors, climate vents for rear seat passengers and used such cheap carpeting materials is a puzzle. The fact that the 2018 car is in some ways even more cheaply made says they don't read or pay attention to their buyers. Look at the threads complaining about the seat comfort and quality issues as a good example. I would have fully expected the 2018 would have addressed this issue if no other. The other issue I forgot to mention is the angle of the display screen. There are too many times when the reflection off of the screen makes it unreadable. Either allow it to be tilted to compensate for that or properly shade it so it isn't an issue.

I have owned quite a few cars over the years (I'm 73), including BMWs, Porsche's, Mercedes, Lexus, Infinity and more. For driving a sedan, the BMW's are hard to beat, still the best driving car with Mercedes close on its heel. In the sports car category, the Porsche is just a fantastic fun car but requires a lot more skill and concentration with its oversteer dynamics versus the understeer in most sedans. Where the Bolt gives these cars a run for the money is in the instant acceleration that is a real kick. The Hyundai is a very quick car for its size with very good acceleration, uses regular gas and gets decent mileage for a big heavy car at 22mpg around town and a little over 30mpg on the highway. However, there is that lag where the car is downshifting and the motor is spinning up that creates the feeling that you aren't going to make it before it suddenly lurches ahead. With the Bolt is it just instant acceleration that keeps going (as long as you can keep the darn tires from spinning and pulling you first to one side and then the other).
 

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2. Performance (0-60 time is better on M3), 3. Being rear wheel drive, if GM had made the Bolt rear wheel drive, offered an optional all wheel drive and employed better styling (looks live every other hatchback on the road) they would have given the M3 a serious run for the money, 4. Power seats r
Without trying to sound sarcastic, just trying to understand ... in the 0 to 60 mph acceleration, how exactly does Model 3's the half a second difference vs. the Bolt serve the owner?

I agree that AWD would be great, but why would RWD be better than FWD?
 

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Without trying to sound sarcastic, just trying to understand ... in the 0 to 60 mph acceleration, how exactly does Model 3's the half a second difference vs. the Bolt serve the owner?

I agree that AWD would be great, but why would RWD be better than FWD?
The Bolt could be just as fast as the Tesla Model 3 lower range model with different tires. The Bolt is a hot hatch with some low resistance heavy tires and rims. Negatives with FWD with EV's may not be the same as ICE cars. FWD is supposed to eat away at tires quicker and have more oversteer. However, EV's have their weight better balanced than a ICE car. ICE cars with FWD drive have way to much weight in the front.

The other thing is Chevy does make a good car with FWD. This is the reason why the Bolt has FWD. With EV's a FWD vs RWD will not have as much difference as an ICE car.
 

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I also hope the Model 3 does really well. It is the one thing that will keep a fire under ICE OEMs, and governments. As to it being the best car, that depends totally on what you want from your car. We wanted the smallest car that would go ~200 miles on a charge. We would have prefered an even smaller two seater, but there isn't one. The lawyer/pimp image, and stupid fast acceleration that German car makers trade on, and Tesla has cooped, is a negative for us.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
We need a table with the features and prices compared between the Model 3 and the Bolt EV. Does the Bolt EV compare favorably with the Model 3 in terms of value for money.
 

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We need a table with the features and prices compared between the Model 3 and the Bolt EV. Does the Bolt EV compare favorably with the Model 3 in terms of value for money.
The Bolt is a much better deal right now because a few things

1. You can actually buy it. You should be able to buy the Model 3 in about two years from now if they fix their production issues
2. You can get discounts off of MSRP with the Bolt. With the Tesla you pay the price.
3. Federal tax credit. You can get one with the Bolt, by the time you get your Tesla the government will have ended that credit or it will be phased out by the sales of Teslas.
4. You can actually go to a lot and purchase the car right now. Did I say that before? Sorry Canadians :(
 

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Without trying to sound sarcastic, just trying to understand ... in the 0 to 60 mph acceleration, how exactly does Model 3's the half a second difference vs. the Bolt serve the owner?
Car guys have obsessed about 0-60 for decades, but once you get to 5-6 it is as much as any street driver would want IMO. I have used the quick acceleration of the Bolt on a number of occasions to get around or ahead of an erratic driver which is a great feature. And anyhow it's the instantaneous torque that matters in my book, not the 0-60 measure.
 

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Tesla threw down the gauntlet to produce the first affordable mass market EV and GM took the challenge and then beat them to it. No wonder, GM has 10, 100 times the resources and experience of Tesla, the only thing they needed to fix was how slow they are. They dealt with that by handing the team an accelerated design schedule. It really paid off too, the team seemed willing to break the internal rules, and actually produce a car with new style and features - very Un-GM. Longer term Tesla can't win this race, if there is one. GM will drive the cost of mass market EV's to rock bottom while the three will remain north of $40k. Which is as it should be - Tesla should remain a luxury brand with the 3 not being a mass market version but just a more affordable Tesla.

We're buying a second EV in a few 3-4 years, if as I expect the 3 will be positioned as a high end EV, and GM Chevy will be targeting the everyman market I'll definitely consider getting a 3. Really it depends on if they can learn to produce cars as well as GM can.
 

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the Bolt compares very favorably to the Model 3 in terms of value - but not in terms of technology - however the Bolt is the only 200+ mile eV you can actually _BUY_ - and from what I"m reading in the forums it may be that way for a while...I love my Tesla's - but man that company makes it hard to be a fan when they are working out a new production process in the public eye...Tesla is great - but they have a _LOT_ to learn...

too bad Chevy isn't serous about EV's (slowly changing I know) but not as serious as Tesla

buy a Bolt, be happy - shove some foam in the driver's seat.
 

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Without trying to sound sarcastic, just trying to understand ... in the 0 to 60 mph acceleration, how exactly does Model 3's the half a second difference vs. the Bolt serve the owner?

I agree that AWD would be great, but why would RWD be better than FWD?
First, there is a significant difference in 0-60 performance. The best rating I have seen for the Bolt is 6.5sec. The M3 is rated at 5.6 sec for the small battery and 5.1sec for the larger battery. That is a significant difference in performance for either battery version. Acceleration and range are two important factors in performance. If that weren't the case, no one would pay for a V8 over a V6 or 4 cylinder ICE vehicle. Six hundred HP cars would not sell for more because no one would want them.

Rear wheel drive is better for a couple of reasons. First, when you have a lot of torque like and electric motor provides you need to be able to get that power to the pavement in a controlled fashion or it is wasted. The induced torque steer is substantial in the Bolt. As a result of the high torque and tires that are not sticky you get wheel spin. The software tries to compensate for the wheel spin by applying braking to the spinning tire which then causes the torque to shift to the other wheel, this back and forth between to two front steering wheels creates an extreme squirrelly feel that could lead to loss of control as the driver tries to compensate first in one direction and then the other. Ultimately, it also impacts the performance because the power is not being efficiently transmitted to the wheels and road. If you want to compare, try this experiment. Get in a rear wheel drive vehicle, take your hands off the wheel and floor it from a dead stop with the wheels point straight ahead. It will shoot off down the road in a straight line in most cases (not having one wheel sitting on a slippery surface). Try that in a Bolt. It will scare the crap out of you. I haven't had the guts to try it as it can be scary enough with my hands on the wheel as I feel it trying to control the torque steer.
 

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Chevy is not the target...

BMW 3 series and Mercedes C class is the target. The Bolt is the Bolt and it will do fine...but BMW better watch out if Tesla can actually make any 3’s
Agreed. The Model 3 and the Bolt aren't really competitors. Only Elon's silly media hype about a $35,000 Tesla to get people whipped up ever made the Model 3 a potential competitor, but I think most realize by now those $35,000 Teslas are pretty much just a limited time promotional offer just for talking points. The real price of the Model 3 starts around the low $40,000s.

The Bolt's only real competition is now the new Leaf and to a much smaller extent, the i3.
 

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barjohn,

"Rear wheel drive is better for a couple of reasons."

As someone who grew up in the north country watching Saabs, and Minis trouncing Corvettes at the ice races, I can only laugh.
 

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barjohn,

"Rear wheel drive is better for a couple of reasons."

As someone who grew up in the north country watching Saabs, and Minis trouncing Corvettes at the ice races, I can only laugh.
His full explanation was referring to EV's and I agree. I have a Leaf which is front wheel drive and with the stock tires, in wet weather, I can spin quite easily. My BMW's on the other hand, with more horsepower and torque do not. With snow tires on both, I would much rather be driving the BMW's than the Leaf. The best traction car I ever had was a VW beetle in college. (skinny tires). Getting up Onondaga hill in Syracuse in the winter was no problem. Can't say the same for my 1970 Duster.
 

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The beetle was great for traction, as are some other RWD cars. But for keeping the frontend ahead of the backend, in bad conditions, I'll take a FWD every time.
 

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Agreed. The Model 3 and the Bolt aren't really competitors. Only Elon's silly media hype about a $35,000 Tesla to get people whipped up ever made the Model 3 a potential competitor, but I think most realize by now those $35,000 Teslas are pretty much just a limited time promotional offer just for talking points. The real price of the Model 3 starts around the low $40,000s.

The Bolt's only real competition is now the new Leaf and to a much smaller extent, the i3.

I don't understand why people think the $35k Model 3 is a shell game. I fully expect to configure mine at $35k in about 6 months based on the current estimator. If the Model S is any indication, they've actually become a better value over time with either better specs for the same money or equal specs for less. If they make the projected margins that were brought up at the 2Q? earnings report, AND are able to produce in quantity, it would go against his mission statement to advance the adoption of renewable energy transportation by stifling growth at the bottom of the pyramid.
I question how the BMW i3 is considered a better competitor to the Bolt. It's MSRP is $44,450, has a range of about 80 miles, seats 4, but it is a hatchback. I don't think the Model 3 is comparable either but just sayin'.
Lastly, GM will never sell pure EV's in the numbers that Tesla does/will until the charging infrastructure is comparable. Ain't gonna happen.
 
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