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Isn't front wheel drive different in ICE cars because of weight distribution with the engine over the driving wheels, which is not at all the same in a Bolt or Tesla? The Beetle had the engine over the rear wheels.

Think about where the batteries are. They are under the passenger compartment, where the passengers sit, so don't change the front to rear weight distribution. All the drive components, in the Bolt, are up front, just like any other FWD car. The measured weight distribution is 56.3% f/43.7% r

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-test-review-car-and-driverchevroletboltev2017.pdf

On modern EVs, like the Leaf, Bolt, and Model 3, the batteries are under the passenger area floor. Their main effects are to raise total weight, and lower the CG.
 

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Claims about how good the Tesla Model 3 is are rather illogical.
ummmm - no they aren't.

There is exactly one, count it, one, electric sedan in the sub $40,000 price range.
Nissan Leaf, VW eGolf, Kia Soul, Ford Focus EV

There are several reasons I would never buy the current Model 3 or, in fact, any product Tesla sells.
but let's be honest - isn't this more about Tesla banning you from owning their products because they don't want you associated with them?

The problems with the Model 3 are both unique to that model and one is common for all current electric cars. The common problem with the current crop of EVs is their batteries - they are far to heavy, too large, too expensive and have too limited a lifespan, and are about to be rendered obsolete.
lack of any facts associated with this assertion renders it "unfounded opinion" - which you are entitled to - but it doesn't make it correct or even relevant.

Problems unique to the Model 3, aside from sight unseen but likely electronic and mechanical problems when they ever manage to figure out how to manufacture the car
correct Tesla is currently working on figuring out how to produce the Model 3 -if you're so certain of their failure I recommend shorting the stock - if they do fail you will make a small-large fortune if you put your money where you mouth is.

are the front end design - as ugly a front end as I've ever seen.
style issues tend to vary by person - so I grant that you believe this

Ditto for the aero wheelcovers.
then either order the car without the aero wheels or simply remove them - the stock wheels look great without the aero covers

The square touchscreen located in the worst possible place, looks as out of place as a TV in an Indian teepee. It is also dangerous- I predict a recall after a suitable number of accidents.
I predict a locus swarm - which is about as likely as a recall over the screen that you predict - you don't like it - fine, but please don't confuse your distaste for something with an actual problem.

The crazy strange idea of locating the power window switches on the touchscreen leads me to believe that the interior was designed by a non-driver.
factually incorrect - the Model 3 has normal/physical window control switches - it would have been stupid for the back seat as well and no one is stupid enough to not have physical windows switches requiring back seat customers to lean forward to use the center touch screen you hate.

time stamp 10:45 in Doug's review clearly show & demonstrates physical window switches for the Model 3 - so this is pure Tesla hater bashing with made up assertions being presented as "facts" - easily debunked.

http://www.thedrive.com/opinion/15838/the-truth-behind-doug-demuros-tesla-model-3-review

Overall, Tesla's engineering is absurd- tons of electronic gadgets, certain to fail, certain to cost a small fortune to fix, if one even bothers to fix them, etc. Tesla has ruined the basic simplicity of the electric car.
so to summarize:

There is only 1 $40,000 EV on the market - wrong - factually incorrect
Colby won't purchase a Tesla product - great - free market and what not
LiOn Batteries suck and will be replaced tomorrow with something better - fake problem for which there is no viable alternative
Tesla can't produce a model 3 - 100% correct - and if you believe they never will there is actually money to be made betting against them - so go on do that!
Doesn't like the style choices of some of the panels - beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Doesn't like the base model wheels - didn't find the option to purchase other wheels - clearly Tesla is the only car manufacturer to ever ship base model wheels people don't like
The single center screen is fail and dooms Tesla to the trash heap of the auto industry - best case "mayyyyy be" - but unlikely - and since he's never purchased a Tesla (due to the Elon banning him) he's never used the software and therefore is simply bashing something he doesn't understand
Tesla Model 3 lacks physical windows control switches - factually incorrect statement - no excuse possible
Electronics in cars suck and they will break - not unique to Tesla - and actually the Bolt has more "things to go wrong" - so kinda true about all modern cars

I really really see nothing here that stands up to any actual critical thinking other than Colby clearly and obviously dislikes Tesla - for which that is fine as I don't like Halliburton or any other of a number of companies - but don't confuse hate with rational discourse.
 

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http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...boltev2017.pdf says the motor is an AC motor. I know we charge via either AC or DC and, if AC, convert to DC (rectifier) to charge the battery. Do we reconvert that battery power to AC (inverter) for the motor, or was the Car & Driver evaluator wrong? All motors are not AC, are they?
There are AC induction motors with windings for stator and rotor, as invented by Nikola Tesla, and used by Tesla car company, in the Model S, and Model X. There are also permanent magnet motors with magnets replacing the windings on the stator or rotor. The oldest, and simplest use DC with brushes, and commutators (simple rotary switches). However, most EVs now, including the Model 3, use brushless, permanent magnet motors, which are a bit of both thanks to their sophisticated controllers. The simplest brushless, DC motor controllers just replace the rotary switch with solid state switches. But we have gone far beyond that now. Modern solid state controllers can simulate alternating waveforms, and at very high frequencies and power levels. There is much more that can, and is done with the controllers for these motors than I fully understand, not being an electronics engineer. But I do try to glean what little I can grasp.

In addition to controller design, there is an entire science of permanent magnet motor design.
 

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Smoke and Mirrors

I am still completely baffled why everyone continues to compare the Bolt and Model 3 both in terms of price/value and features..

Musk is a brilliant marketing machine. Product wise, the Bolt is every bit as good. Have you really seen the fit and finish on a Tesla? In some I have seen, panel gaps of 1/4" are not uncommon. This type of quality control is laughable. No other car manufacturer could get away with this, except maybe Tata motors.

Then there are the parts. GM wins here by a country mile. Go and look at the cost of Bolt parts online. They are cheap! Only Tesla produces Tesla parts. If you need a part, prepare to be raped. Tesla doesn't even publish a parts catalog with pricing. How many car companies do that now?
Then assume your car is in an accident. Prepare to be raped again. The insurance industry costs are well documented. Most owners are completely unaware that after a significant accident, Tesla wants to "recertify" your vehicle. Pony up $2000 or more. It is well documented that perfectly good Model S are salvaged because of exorbitant repair costs. Then they are not obligated to fulfill your request which then leads to turning off your supercharger privileges.

Trade a car in to buy a Tesla, your lucky to get a wholesale offer. Prepare to be severely disappointed. Trade your old Tesla in, prepare to be severely disappointed again. GM wins here again.

Then the tech...Autopilot goes in the win column for Tesla. The rest of the model 3? No HUD. Look closely at the center screen and think how many times you have to take your eyes off the road to fiddle with controls on the screen. Frankly, it is somewhat stupid. Change the temperature in the Bolt...turn a knob. In a model 3 get to the screen and start spasmatic finger pulses to get to the temperature you want. Go to the screen to find a tab to push to open the glovebox? Really now.
The steering wheel is a joke. Spaceship controls...maybe russian spaceship controls. That was SO disappointing. My Acura has more "tech" in the steering wheel alone.

Product updates, Tesla wins. GM simply has not grasped this concept yet.

Bolt wins (by a very long way) on cost. My previous posts on Tesla battery maintenance costs alone compared to the Bolt are well documented in this forum. We are talking thousands of dollars in difference.

Practicality, Bolt wins. Try and load a chair in the trunk of the 3...good luck. Rear seat passengers could have a party in the Bolt. What was Elon thinking with that trunk design? The hatch of the S was perfect for the 3.

Speed, Tesla obviously wins but not by much...Not everyone races sub 6 seconds everyday to go to work.

Service. GM wins. Part will come relatively quickly and you won't wait 3 weeks for an appointment. Call an ambulance when Tesla hands you the repair bill. Your wife will probably divorce you when she finds out you spend more on the car than on her.

Reliability, Bolt definately wins. Tesla problems are well documented. The 3 will be no different. Consumer Reports is not usually wrong. Yes, the Bolt had a few battery issues and this forum documents other issues. Once the 3 comes out in similar quantities, the problems will be exponentially higher, just as in the S and X.

Finally, supercharging. Tesla wins but truthfully, many people fly rather than drive long distances. Given the cost savings between the Bolt and 3, I could fly first class many times a year and still come out ahead.

Tax credit. There won't be one with the Tesla, at least not in significant numbers. If Trump has his way, it will be zero. I predict another delay...while expensive S and X continue to roll off the assembly line. We are now well into November...and not a peep from Tesla on bottleneck updates. We have seen this before. It won't turn out well.

In short, the 3 is a good car...not a great car. It has been severely overhyped...just like Tesla stock. The Bolt is the sleeper of the two. For me, the sleeper wins hands down. I would have preferred GM built the Bolt concept as I thought it was a more pure EV design. Especially the curved rear glass hatch.

However without Tesla, the Bolt would not exist. And for that we need to be thankful.

Tesla needs to mature. It is too much, too fast. Overpromising and underdelivering is not a prudent business plan, which is why I cancelled my 2 model 3 reservations. I could have lived with the 3, but given all the excess baggage noted above and the real $$$, it is not a comparison at all. If I wanted Model S pricing....I would have bought an S, not a 3 priced like an S.

Finally, don't underestimate GM. They have crashed the Tesla party. The Bolt is just an appetizer, not the main course. Everyone including Tesla seems to have forgotten that.
 

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I am still completely baffled why everyone continues to compare the Bolt and Model 3 both in terms of price/value and features.
It's because they are the only cars that have such a long range at such a low price. There simply aren't enough other EVs out there yet for there to be anything else to compare them with. If the only two ICE models in the world were a Honda Fit and a Audi TT, then you can be sure that people would compare them.

I generally agree with most of your points, though. I never even remotely considered the Model 3 because of it's form factor. Styling is very low down on my list and utility is very high, which made the Bolt's hatchback the obvious choice.
 

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It's because they are the only cars that have such a long range at such a low price. .
From the point of view of the US mass consumers, (which is not the same as EV "analysts", early customers aka beta-tester or investors), Model 3's doesn't exist (yet). Therefore, its range is 0 miles, giver or take 0%, and its price is $0.00 less incentives.

Likewise, the Bolt doesn't exist for the global consumer.

I think that's where the argument ends. God made time so that all things won't happen at once. Model 3 hasn't happened yet for the mass consumer.
 

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I recently showed our Bolt to a guy who didn't know that Teslas are electric. Even those who know think it is some sort of hybrid. Fourteen years on the market, and this simple fact hasn't reached mass consumers.
 

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I recently showed our Bolt to a guy who didn't know that Teslas are electric. Even those who know think it is some sort of hybrid. Fourteen years on the market, and this simple fact hasn't reached mass consumers.
Most people don't care about cars, or pay attention to cars. The first thing out of most people's mouth when I tell them I bought a Bolt and it's electric is, how many MPG does it get? It's not easy to reach the mass consumer because they just don't care. The best way to reach them is the way we are doing it. Word of mouth.
 

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The first thing out of most people's mouth when I tell them I bought a Bolt and it's electric is, how many MPG does it get?
Yup. And when you tell them it is 100% electric, their eyes get huge, and they ask how much the replacement battery costs. This is a perfectly sensible question, based on their experience. Every battery powered device they own needs a new battery very few years. Telling them it lists for $15K has them shaking their heads. They can't believe you are that stupid.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Every battery powered device they own needs a new battery very few years. Telling them it lists for $15K has them shaking their heads. They can't believe you are that stupid.
Not quite. Its been a while since we started buying devices with irreplaceable batteries. I think my first was the gen 1 iPhone, for example, ten years ago. I have laptops that are 7 years old that are still using the original battery, although I must admit I keep 'em charged most of the time. The warranty on the Bolt EV battery is eight years or 100k miles. I believe that is likely a good clue to how long the battery lasts. In eight years, it will be interesting to hear the songs on here about "battery replacement woes".
 

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I have the original battery in my flip phone too. I am talking about the average person who leaves their single cell, dumb/no BMS stuff plugged into the charger all the time, and has ruined it within a year. The idea of a battery lasting ten years is unimaginable to them.

http://thisweekinbatteries.blogspot.com/2010/02/pull-plug-your-battery-will-thank-you.html

http://thisweekinbatteries.blogspot.com/2010/02/battery-rules.html

I expect to still have more range than the new Leaf in eight years.
 

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Yup. And when you tell them it is 100% electric, their eyes get huge, and they ask how much the replacement battery costs. This is a perfectly sensible question, based on their experience. Every battery powered device they own needs a new battery very few years. Telling them it lists for $15K has them shaking their heads. They can't believe you are that stupid.
Actually the question I get after I tell them it's all electric and there is no gas motor is, who far can you go? So far 100% of the time. When I say 240 miles, most are impressed or satisfied. I don't think anybody has asked me about replacement battery cost yet.
 

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Most people don't care about cars, or pay attention to cars. <snip>The best way to reach them is the way we are doing it. Word of mouth.
I'd also add another method: When sitting beside young dudes in muscle cars at red lights, put that Bolt in Sport mode and peel out. Gets their attention 99.87% of the time.;)
 

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I'd also add another method: When sitting beside young dudes in muscle cars at red lights, put that Bolt in Sport mode and peel out. Gets their attention 99.87% of the time.;)
I have an ICE rental for a few weeks. Before Bolt EV (sort of like bc, but bbev) I would have thought my rental was a reasonable car with reasonable pick-up. These days it feels truly awful. Herky-jerky motion is one way of putting it; unresponsive is another.
 
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