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Steve Forbes: Rich people don't need your money to buy electric cars -- Let's get real about EV tax credits

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/steve-forbes-electric-cars-ev-tax-credit
As someone at the income level they describe as "rich", here is the truth (something which you will never find on Fox News). The strawman fallacy is that the beneficiaries of the EV credit are rich, when, in fact they are middle class. Rich folk don't drive cars at all. They scoot about the country in their massively polluting private jets.

The whole purpose of Fox News is to convince the lower middle class that the upper middle class is rich and therefore have the peons fight among each other thus distracting attention from the actual rich.

In addition, the EV credit is not even a hand out in the first place, all it does is return money EV owners would otherwise be paying to subsidize ICE owners.
 

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I don't like the partisan slant of the article and especially the misleading tangent about EVs not being environmentally friendly, but the underlying premise is what I've been arguing about all along. There simply is no way to say that the subsidy is not regressive in nature. If you're buying a new vehicle, that automatically means you're wealthy. I'd argue that 80% of US citizens are wealthy when compared to the world.

The point about government picking industry winners and losers is exactly right. It's a disgusting and corrupt way to affect change, putting politicians in close proximity with lobbyists. There's no incentive to actually affect change, only to create a feel-good perception of being someone that "gets things done for the American people".

We've already discussed at length how even if you want the stupid subsidy, it was implemented in about the worst conceivable way.

Politicians have little to no interest in actually solving problems, only appearing to do so. We deserve the results since we've elected these numbskulls.

...and I hear no criticism to the main points raised by the article, so I can assume silence on the matter is agreement with it.
 

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BTW, in a related note, the KIA NIRO will be getting the full $7500 refund into the very distant future, since it has and will have none of the sales that GM and Tesla have.
Reviews are excellent.
 

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There is a similar article by George Will in the Washington Post. It is curious that there is suddenly a push to oppose the EV subsidy. I think this may mean that the proposal to update and extend the subsidy is gaining ground in Congress. Trump opposes it, of course, but if part of a tax bill with other things he likes he probably would not veto a whole package to get rid of this one thing. That Forbes, Will, and Trump are looking out for the poor and working class is a joke. The fallacy of these arguments is that the subsidy, while helping some rich people, has the intent and purpose of helping to fight climate change and help American auto makers to retool for a changing market. EV is coming because of changes in China and Europe. GM etc. will either adapt or die in the market. The subsidy will help get them where they need to be. Unfortunately, the current state of the subsidy is mostly helping foreign car makers. If these guys were really serious they would propose replacing the subsidy with a carbon tax, but they are not serious.
 

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The point about government picking industry winners and losers is exactly right.
They aren't "picking winners and losers". You can get the same credit for a FCV as well. If you can think of and invent a new kind of car that doesn't burn fossil fuels, then I'm sure it would be covered with a credit as well. There are competitors in this "competition" and the consumer can choose.

What they are doing is incentivizing consumers to get off fossil fuel in their transportation. If you mean by "picking winners and losers" fossil fuel vs. alternative power, then yes, the government has chosen a winner. It chose fossil fuel decades ago and has been subsidizing and fostering it to this date. It's just now some in government are trying to help a competing solution have a chance and the fossil fuel folks don't like competition.

Free market my eye. No such thing.

...and I hear no criticism to the main points raised by the article, so I can assume silence on the matter is agreement with it.
No agreement from me with the nonsense in the article. I love how those folks that hate the IRS and want to abolish it, those that LOVE tax cuts, those that spout off about taxes being theft, absolutely hate a simple tax credit (where the consumer gets to keep more of their money, just like a tax cut) for buying an electric car. I did not buy my car with the help of other people's money, so let's just stop that BS now. I bought my Bolt with my money. (Well a bit of the bank's money too... :laugh:)
 

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Like everything that 'Fox News' produces, it isn't a news article but 'op-ed': a highly opinionated editorial slanted towards the hard right, with little if any news content. Of course, the handlers of Fox News and Donald Trump (the Koch brothers and other Big Oil Companies) hate solar power and EVs. They represent a loss of sales for them.

Not all of the subsidies available to EV buyers are paid for by the government through tax credits. For example, the California state rebate program, administered by the Center for Sustainable Energy

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng

is funded by 'cap and trade' money. Most of this money comes from the oil companies, whose refineries belch out many tons of pollutants, for which they are fined by the state. BTW: this rebate is treated as taxable income.

PG&E's $800 rebate for EV owners is internally funded:

https://www.pge.com/en_US/residenti.../clean-fuel-rebate-for-electric-vehicles.page

I'm not sure if the PG&E rebate is taxable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Not all of the subsidies available to EV buyers are paid for by the government through tax credits. For example, the California state rebate program, administered by the Center for Sustainable Energy

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng

is funded by 'cap and trade' money. Most of this money comes from the oil companies, whose refineries belch out many tons of pollutants, for which they are fined by the state. BTW: this rebate is treated as taxable income.

PG&E's $800 rebate for EV owners is internally funded:

https://www.pge.com/en_US/residenti.../clean-fuel-rebate-for-electric-vehicles.page

I'm not sure if the PG&E rebate is taxable.
That's an interesting thought, that corporations somehow actually pay taxes rather than pass the costs of doing business onto their customers through higher prices.
 

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As long as you also oppose the child tax credit, excluding life insurance proceeds from taxation, accelerated depreciation, no tax on the first 500k in profit from the sale of a home, and the tax deduction of charitable donations and hundreds of other tax incentives and expenditures then you indeed have a principle. If not, you just have an agenda.
 

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They aren't "picking winners and losers". You can get the same credit for a FCV as well. If you can think of and invent a new kind of car that doesn't burn fossil fuels, then I'm sure it would be covered with a credit as well. There are competitors in this "competition" and the consumer can choose.
OK, I can think of riding a bicycle as an alternative to driving a car. What is the subsidy for riding a bicycle? Where is the incentive to do so?

This absolutely chooses industry winners and losers because picking 2 technologies by definition gives them an advantage over the infinite amount of possibilities. Do you then disagree that the government is not picking favorites here? Your argument simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

What they are doing is incentivizing consumers to get off fossil fuel in their transportation. If you mean by "picking winners and losers" fossil fuel vs. alternative power, then yes, the government has chosen a winner. It chose fossil fuel decades ago and has been subsidizing and fostering it to this date. It's just now some in government are trying to help a competing solution have a chance and the fossil fuel folks don't like competition.

Free market my eye. No such thing.
Politicians are paying lip service to the problem. If you actually think paying a $7,500 subsidy for every EV is the most effective and beneficial way to spend the money to reduce fossil fuel consumption, then you've been had. Furthermore, EV subsidies per market share are orders of magnitude greater than the fossil fuel industry. I'm with you on abandoning all subsidy for fossil fuels (and most other things), but you don't level the playing field by giving certain cherished players a head start.

Transportation is only 29% of energy use:


Of that,
electricity provided less than 1% of total transportation sector energy use and nearly all of that in mass transit systems.


Source:

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/?page=us_energy_transportation

Would you say that spending these enormous amounts of money is an effective method of reducing CO2 emissions, which is primary goal?

My argument has always been that if something is bad, a study needs to find what the limits should be weighing all of the conceivable short and long-term consequences. Then that bad thing needs to be taxed at a rate that would achieve those goals. No such study was done. Show me a model that predicts the effects of the subsidy on reducing CO2 emissions. There isn't one because that was never the intention. It's feel-good politics at the expense of the tax payer, and the benefit of the wealthy and select industries.

No agreement from me with the nonsense in the article. I love how those folks that hate the IRS and want to abolish it, those that LOVE tax cuts, those that spout off about taxes being theft, absolutely hate a simple tax credit (where the consumer gets to keep more of their money, just like a tax cut) for buying an electric car. I did not buy my car with the help of other people's money, so let's just stop that BS now. I bought my Bolt with my money. (Well a bit of the bank's money too... :laugh:)
Sure, I don't agree with the nonsense part either. You still haven't pointed out which parts you disagree with though, so I can only assume you don't have any. If you disagree with something, quote it and say what it is.

I'm not passing judgement on anyone legally taking public funds. My intention has always been to take advantage of the credit despite my opposition to it. If I could vote for myself and everyone else to not get it, I would, but since we were never given the opportunity to vote, it's a moot point.

That's an interesting thought, that corporations somehow actually pay taxes rather than pass the costs of doing business onto their customers through higher prices.
Which is why low corporate taxes is among the most universally accepted economic principles by economists of all political persuasions. It has something like 90% agreement among economists.
 

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This article is a total crock. The purpose of the tax credit is to help push EVs into the mainstream. It is to give car companies a leg up so they can innovate a new paradigm. If it takes more wealthy customers to do it first don't forget that all of the founding fathers were well to do. The poor working people didn't have time to concoct a revolution. Of course they did make excellent cannon fodder afterwards. As someone mentioned, fossil fuel companies have been getting subsidies forever.
You know what enrages me, a president who uses tax payer dollars to hold as many rallies as he can. Heck, he never stopped campaigning since he was elected. How about the trips to Mar-a-Lago? It costs us, the taxpayers around $206,000 an hour to fly Air Force One. It costs around 3.4 million dollars every time he goes. No one at Fox seems very concerned with that.
When fossil fuel companies (Like Shell Oil) finally figure out they can turn gas stations into charging station they too will love electric vehicles. Don't you love ex-house speaker Boehner?
Rabid right wing ideologue nows heads up the biggest marijuana lobby? The hypocrisy is sickening. End of rant.
 

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I think the tax credits would be better if they were cash applied directly to the sale prices of EV cars to make them more affordable to people who may not qualify for the full $7500 federal rebate. Throw in some funding for companies building EV charging infrastructure and I think we make progress towards more widespread EV adoption.
 

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I don't like the partisan slant of the article and especially the misleading tangent about EVs not being environmentally friendly, but the underlying premise is what I've been arguing about all along. There simply is no way to say that the subsidy is not regressive in nature. If you're buying a new vehicle, that automatically means you're wealthy. I'd argue that 80% of US citizens are wealthy when compared to the world.

The point about government picking industry winners and losers is exactly right. It's a disgusting and corrupt way to affect change, putting politicians in close proximity with lobbyists. There's no incentive to actually affect change, only to create a feel-good perception of being someone that "gets things done for the American people".

We've already discussed at length how even if you want the stupid subsidy, it was implemented in about the worst conceivable way.

Politicians have little to no interest in actually solving problems, only appearing to do so. We deserve the results since we've elected these numbskulls.

...and I hear no criticism to the main points raised by the article, so I can assume silence on the matter is agreement with it.
The tax is indeed regressive, but that doesn't mean it is a handout nor is it for rich people.

I calculated the cost of securing the middle east, the only purpose of which is to secure access to oil and stabilize the world oil price. The cost has been in excess of $2T since 2001. Based on the ongoing cost and the interest in the financed portion of debt that covered that $2T and taking that percentage of the federal budget and applying it to my tax liability, it turns out I pay about $7000/year to subsidize access to gasoline, yet I don't use gasoline. Therefore, that tax "credit" is simply not forcing me to pay to subsidize someone else's transportation costs FOR ONE YEAR. So this year I didn't have to pay to subsidize other people's transportation costs, but next year I will have to again. That is socialism right there (taking my money to subsidize someone else's transportation).
 

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Reducing direct fossil fuel consumption is a noble cause. That said, our lifestyles depend on it regardless of our personal use. The economy has such a huge dependence that nearly everything we do has been facilitated in some way by oil consumption.
 

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Reducing direct fossil fuel consumption is a noble cause. That said, our lifestyles depend on it regardless of our personal use. The economy has such a huge dependence that nearly everything we do has been facilitated in some way by oil consumption.
Yup, this it true, we have a deep dependence on fossil fuels. Just as a heroine addict has a deep dependence on opioids - doesn't mean that we don't need to systematically reduce our dependence ASAP, before it kills us.

This article is just more right wing propaganda put out by rich conservatives who want to continue to make money hand over fist, regardless of how much it hurts us as a people.

Forbes (rather cleverly) posits that subsidies for EVs are simply some kind of twisted power grab by rich people who want to buy Teslas, and want the public to partially pay for them.

Seriously?

This is so typical of corporate mis-direction and appeal to visceral fears of weak minded conservatives, that it's laughable.

"Rich people are taking money out of your families' pockets so they can buy their toys!!", he bleats.

The ironic thing is that rich people are indeed trying to take advantage of you, just in a different way, by getting you all pissed off, then leading you around by the nose, like a donkey.)

The *truth* is that Steve Forbes is heavily invested is fossil fuels, and is trying to protect his interests.

Some more truth is that we need end our dependence on fossil fuels, and quickly. Batteries are still so expensive that purchasing an EV is still not as economically feasible as ICEs (at this point).

What should have happened is we should have taken a many pronged approach to incentivising *not* using fossil fuels, such as a carbon tax, air quality regulations, EV credits (should be direct decrease from price instead of tax credit), as well as others.

Well, once again the carbon taxes we should have passed 20 years ago got stymied by big oil, and conservatives have continually done their best to roll back air, water and other clean regulations.

Just because the only incentive left standing is the EV credit doesn't mean we should just say "oh well screw it, might as well throw that out too, and give up!"

The government, as someone has posted, isn't "picking winners", that's just silly. It's not giving Tesla a huge tax break, (that would be picking a winner - you know, like the huge tax breaks we're giving oil companies right now!?) it's supporting the partial solution of converting our transportation to alternative, renewable energy sources.

When it became apparent that we need decent, paved roads for people to drive on when cars first took over from horse and buggies, the government, seeing the need for inter state standards and mass production, the Federal Highway Administration was born, and it did a *great* job building our highway system @ far less cost and chaos than if we had forced the individual states to try to do it. Was this "Picking winners"? No, it was backing a program that benefited the entire country.

And yes, the energy used to power the EVs needs to also be clean energy. Here's how you do that:

We need to not only keep, but extend (and improve) the EV incentives, until such time that battery costs come down enough to make EVs truly competitive with ICEs. And we need to double down - Carbon Taxes that really get to the root of the problem.

Regulations that make carbon base fuels less attractive. Stop giving oil companies financial incentives.

Upgrade the grid, install whatever grid storage and energy equalization solutions that are appropriate for that area. (For instance, if the government were to incentivise the installation of smart whole house batteries, such as the Tesla Powerwall, people could charge the battery during the night (or off peak hours) , then release energy during the day, or during peak draws, automatically - this would go a long way towards equalizing, and ameliorating the problems of wind and solar contributions to the grid.

But most of all, we need to *elect representatives* that acknowledge the problem, are smart, knowledgeable, and will proactively start implementing solutions. (GO Pete Buttigieg!!)

And we need to call out conservative sheep and their spurious, logically flawed and baseless objections to cleaning this mess, our mess up, before we go over the cliff.

And, by the way, if rich people are buying lots of EVs, we should thank them, because the more EVs there are on the roads, the more EVs there will be on the roads. And, if I'm not mistaken, that's the whole freakin' idea.

If you want to do something to help fix the income disparity between the wealthy and the middle class, well, cool, I'm with you. Support a wealth tax. But don't stop them from buying EVs.
That's just stoopid.
 

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Reducing direct fossil fuel consumption is a noble cause. That said, our lifestyles depend on it regardless of our personal use. The economy has such a huge dependence that nearly everything we do has been facilitated in some way by oil consumption.
I don't want to subsidize oil. Period. Increase my airfare to reflect the true cost of the jet fuel. I travel on business. All of my business competition will be affected equally by the increase, so it won't penalize any particular business and it will suddenly make fuel cell aircraft (which are entirely technically feasible) viable for any airline which does want to undercut its competition and steal business. Likewise, fuel cell electric class 8 trucks are already commercially available and they will essentially take over the trucking industry overnight if truckers begin paying the actual, unsubsidized cost for diesel.

Also, there is only one country that pays this enormous price to subsidize oil for the entire world, so the moment that we cease to cover that enormous cost our economy is freed up to become fantastically more competitive internationally.
 

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Forbes (rather cleverly) posits that subsidies for EVs are simply some kind of twisted power grab by rich people who want to buy Teslas, and want the public to partially pay for them.
I saw no mention of that in the linked article. Can you point me to where he did say or imply that?

EV subsidies are a power grab because it pays lip service to a real problem and dupes well-intentioned but scientifically/economically illiterate people into championing particular bureaucrats or political religions.

You've already mentioned a real strategy that would be easily 10,000x more effective than an EV subsidy, which is a carbon tax. Politicians won't touch that because people won't support it.

"Rich people are taking money out of your families' pockets so they can buy their toys!!", he bleats.
Yes, then he goes on with the facts:

"The Manhattan Institute has estimated that Tesla buyers had an average household income of $293,000 in 2013 and a later 2015 study found that even buyers of the more cost-effective Ford Focus EV had an average household income of $199,000. To put that in perspective, the 2018 median household income in the U.S. was just over $60,000"

Seems pretty wealthy to me. A Tesla also seems like an extravagance to me as well.

The *truth* is that Steve Forbes is heavily invested is fossil fuels, and is trying to protect his interests.
I don't know anything about Forbes, but I do know 2 things can be true at the same time; 1. That Steve could be motivated to protect his interests. 2. The EV subsidy is among the most corrupt and ineffective way to solve the problem of global warming, and has been implemented in the worst conceivable way.

Pointing out that Steve wants to be wealthy is a logical fallacy when debating the merits of the subsidy, because it is immaterial to the facts.

Some more truth is that we need end our dependence on fossil fuels, and quickly. Batteries are still so expensive that purchasing an EV is still not as economically feasible as ICEs (at this point).

What should have happened is we should have taken a many pronged approach to incentivising *not* using fossil fuels, such as a carbon tax, air quality regulations, EV credits (should be direct decrease from price instead of tax credit), as well as others.
You've just provided evidence against your initial response that there is no merit in the article by providing lots of solutions that would be more effective, including a strategy to more effectively implement the worst conceived idea to fight global warming; EV subsidies.

Well, once again the carbon taxes we should have passed 20 years ago got stymied by big oil, and conservatives have continually done their best to roll back air, water and other clean regulations.
That may be generally true, but has nothing to do with the article or the topic at hand.

The government, as someone has posted, isn't "picking winners", that's just silly.
I've already explained this with a very simple analogy, that providing a $7,500 incentive to 2 technologies is the very definition of picking technology winners and losers. Please explain how it is anything but that? Tell me how the bicycle industry has been boosted in an equal way by implementing the EV subsidy.

What is silly is to deny something that is understood by most all to be the definition of that thing.

Put another way, please provide an example of some other instance where the government did pick a winner, and how that was substantially different than what they are doing now.

When it became apparent that we need decent, paved roads for people to drive on when cars first took over from horse and buggies, the government, seeing the need for inter state standards and mass production, the Federal Highway Administration was born, and it did a *great* job building our highway system
I'd argue that infrastructure is different than a niche product. A large variety of technologies can utilize roads.

We need to not only keep, but extend (and improve) the EV incentives, until such time that battery costs come down enough to make EVs truly competitive with ICEs.
It isn't clear that the subsidy is accelerating the underlying technology, or even that EVs are the way forward. As you even say, H2 should be the way forward. There might even be some other idea that's even better, considering neither of us has perfect knowledge about all things transportation related. It's possible those other better ideas are not able to gain traction because the playing field has been manipulated to favor a few ideas rather than providing incentive for all ideas.

Regulations that make carbon base fuels less attractive. Stop giving oil companies financial incentives.
Amen, brother.

Upgrade the grid, install whatever grid storage and energy equalization solutions that are appropriate for that area. (For instance, if the government were to incentivise the installation of smart whole house batteries, such as the Tesla Powerwall, people could charge the battery during the night (or off peak hours) , then release energy during the day, or during peak draws, automatically - this would go a long way towards equalizing, and ameliorating the problems of wind and solar contributions to the grid.
Those ideas excite me.

But most of all, we need to *elect representatives* that acknowledge the problem, are smart, knowledgeable, and will proactively start implementing solutions.
Solutions to the problems will likely come from liberal leaders because that's kinda the definition of liberal; to come up with an abundance of ideas and to buck the old way of doing things. That said, the old way of doing things is generally a very good way to do them, which is why it survived so long. Most new ideas are terrible (including the EV subsidy). That doesn't mean there aren't great solutions out there.

I'm willing to support great ideas, but loathe the process of accepting everything about a politician in the process. Pledging allegiance to a party or individual is to surrender rational and independent thought. So is opposing everything about a political party or individual. Nobody and nothing contains only the very best ideas, or is entirely wrong and ill-intentioned.

And, by the way, if rich people are buying lots of EVs, we should thank them, because the more EVs there are on the roads, the more EVs there will be on the roads. And, if I'm not mistaken, that's the whole freakin' idea.
You are wrong. The whole freakin' idea is to reduce CO2 emissions, not to drive expensive cars of a particular technology.

Wealthy people are the cause of more CO2 emissions than non-wealthy simply because nearly everything has a dependence on it. I'm not going to thank someone that may be reducing CO2 footprint on a drive that may or may not be necessary when they have an enormous air-conditioned house, filled with many nick-nacks and doo-dads, and all those vacations to far away places... you get the idea. Wealth and CO2 emissions are extremely closely correlated.

It's possible some very wealthy people live lower than average CO2 footprint lives, but it isn't likely. Mostly EVs are a virtue signaling device to distract our disgust away from them.

I don't want to subsidize oil. Period. Increase my airfare to reflect the true cost of the jet fuel.

Also, there is only one country that pays this enormous price to subsidize oil for the entire world, so the moment that we cease to cover that enormous cost our economy is freed up to become fantastically more competitive internationally.
Air travel is among the lowest CO2 emitting forms of transportation. Typically a flight will get 100 passenger miles per gallon of fuel. Single or even double or triple occupancy driving is often less fuel efficient. A Prius is at break even if there is a driver and passenger.

Other allies have contributed blood and treasure to subsidize "oil wars". I'm not about to offend those who have sacrificed by claiming it was entirely shouldered by the US.

... and I appreciate your thoughtfully written posts even if I don't agree with all of what you argue. I'm willing to be wrong about anything I say/believe, I just need to see evidence.
 
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