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I actually took a trip in my Bolt EV over the Mendocino range about two years ago. The Laytonville and Cloverdale chargers didn't even exist at that point. I had no problem making my way to Santa Rosa for my first charging stop. That trip required little to no planning on my part, other than making sure I had a National Forest map with me.

The chargers are definitely welcome, but they weren't really necessary for a day trip in decent weather (the pass over the Mendocino range would be closed to all vehicles in bad weather regardless -- we had a couple of 4x4 owners who had to be rescued recently when a sudden storm came through).

So my point in all of this is that, yes, the DC fast charging infrastructure might be fragile, but let's not kid ourselves about the likelihood of being "stranded" in an EV. An EV's true infrastructure is the power grid itself, which is already far more ubiquitous and resilient than our gasoline fueling infrastructure.
 

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but let's not kid ourselves about the likelihood of being "stranded" in an EV.
This is the main reason I always keep an OEM EVSE in the car. I'm thinking I can always charge it somewhere. If one considers traveling as an adventure, then when things go sideways, it is all part of the adventure. I've had some spectacular adventures in the past while traveling/driving. Missed flights, bad weather, blown tires, broken belts, canceled flights, run out of gas, ignition system failure, broken accelerator cable, brake pedal pin fall out, starter solenoid bad, dead battery, idler pulley failure, timing belt break, timing gear fail, exhaust valve burn, transmission fail, rear differential lock up, fuel pump die, blown hoses, and over heating. I'm sure I can think of more.
 

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This is the main reason I always keep an OEM EVSE in the car. I'm thinking I can always charge it somewhere. If one considers traveling as an adventure, then when things go sideways, it is all part of the adventure. I've had some spectacular adventures in the past while traveling/driving. Missed flights, bad weather, blown tires, broken belts, canceled flights, run out of gas, ignition system failure, broken accelerator cable, brake pedal pin fall out, starter solenoid bad, dead battery, idler pulley failure, timing belt break, timing gear fail, exhaust valve burn, transmission fail, rear differential lock up, fuel pump die, blown hoses, and over heating. I'm sure I can think of more.
Wow, you've had some bad luck!

29578
 

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Wow, you've had some bad luck!
The Bolt was my first car that I bought new for myself. I've bought several cars that already had 100K+ miles on them. I can fix most anything. I'm willing to tolerate a few inconveniences. I've saved a ton of money and retired early. And could easily pay cash for the Bolt. If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all. I'll literally drive something till it falls apart. I have at least 10 cars to choose from if something happens to one. I keep at least two or three in running shape. But now that I'm spoiled with a low maintenance EV, I'm finding it harder to motivate myself to work on cars anymore. There's a good chance, the Bolt would be my next to last new car I'll ever buy for myself. When I'm very old and they try to take my driver's license from me, I'll buy one of those self driving cars. I hope they work the bugs out in the next two decades when I'm in need of one.
 

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We bought our 2020 Bolt to replace my wife's 18 year old VW diesel Bug and according to her it will likely be our last car purchase.
I'm not so sure, but she could be right as I intend to drive my Mustang till they take my licence away (we are of that age as well).
Like you, I'm hopeful that self-driving vehicles may be the answer for we old dudes in the future.
 

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it will likely be our last car purchase.
Similar here. I have been driving 30k miles per year up til the COVID shutdowns (57K on my '18 Bolt). My employer supplied VPN gear so now I am able to do a majority of my work from home. I plan on retiring in a few years and at the current rate, my annual miles will probably be 5 - 10k for the foreseeable future.

My expectation is that at 200k miles, the Bolt will still be a viable mode of transport, maybe even 300K. Sitting in the garage now instead of exposed in the work parking lot should help avoid the effects of weathering a bit too.
 

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If you stick to DCFC locations that are intended for travel between cities, you'll be less likely to encounter overwhelmed DCF locations. The problem is where the locations are intended to serve apartment dwellers or EVGo's "no charge to charge" program. I've seen less of this behavior in the last two years to be honest. If you want to avoid it, hitting chargers between 9 am and 3 pm works best. Early morning and late afternoon tend to be when the locals charge either before or after work.
 

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If you stick to DCFC locations that are intended for travel between cities, you'll be less likely to encounter overwhelmed DCF locations. The problem is where the locations are intended to serve apartment dwellers or EVGo's "no charge to charge" program. I've seen less of this behavior in the last two years to be honest. If you want to avoid it, hitting chargers between 9 am and 3 pm works best. Early morning and late afternoon tend to be when the locals charge either before or after work.
Yup. Traveling with EVs is still fairly rare outside of Tesla (whose owners rarely use the public charging infrastructure), so when you get 100 miles or more outside of major cities, the charging sites are mostly unoccupied. Even on heavily traveled routes like I-5, I rarely encounter other EV owners. I only had two incidents where I arrived at a full charging site (both three-unit ChargePoint sites). In one case, a LEAF owner had been there several hours because his car was rapidgating, and in the second case (the same trip), there was a backlog at the next site because one of the three chargers was down.
 

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I did my first long day-trip in a couple months yesterday. San Jose, CA to Fort Bragg, CA and back (450 miles, round-trip). The roads were pleasantly uncrowded for a nice Saturday in June. It took one fast charging session to make the trip work - a 1 hour stop in Laytonville at a 62.5kW ChargePoint (20%-80%).

Everything worked smoothly, but it got me thinking again about how fragile the DCFC network is. There were only 2 DCFCs there (vs. 8 Tesla SCs). Within 80 miles of Mendocino/Fort Bragg, there are just 3 more DCFC units (1 near Garberville, 2 in Cloverdale). EA has sites in Willits and Garberville that are not yet live, so that'll add 8 more chargers but still - 13 DCFCs for an area of coastline that gets thousands of visitors a day during peak season, and many more traveling through on to Humboldt. I can't really imagine how it'd work if non-Tesla EVs were more than a handful.

I guess my point is that as much as I like EVs, when they start selling in significant numbers, I suspect I'll have to go back to using my ICE for longer trips. The likelihood of getting severely delayed due to the limited infrastructure is just too high. With a gas station, the throughput is high enough that if you wait, it's usually just for a few minutes. But with a 50-60kW DCFC, we're talking potentially several hours, never mind what happens if the units go down altogether. Even Tesla during big holidays has seen this a bit (2+ hour waits in San Luis Obispo last Thanksgiving) and they have much higher numbers of chargers and much faster charging overall.

Now if ranges were expanded to 400+ miles, that would help a little (especially if people can charge overnight before/after their drive), but overall, absent a huge expansion of the network, I don't see how it's going to work. And the time/cost to expand the network is massive.

In the meantime, I think we better enjoy things as they are. When EVs do take off, things are going to be a lot more complicated.
Yup. Traveling with EVs is still fairly rare outside of Tesla (whose owners rarely use the public charging infrastructure), so when you get 100 miles or more outside of major cities, the charging sites are mostly unoccupied. Even on heavily traveled routes like I-5, I rarely encounter other EV owners. I only had two incidents where I arrived at a full charging site (both three-unit ChargePoint sites). In one case, a LEAF owner had been there several hours because his car was rapidgating, and in the second case (the same trip), there was a backlog at the next site because one of the three chargers was down.
I drove my 2019 to Grass Valley, CA, from Mendocino, CA, and there was just ONE CCS charger between those two points (in Williams). East/west routes are barely covered, and if a station is out, well...

Since PGE has decided power delivery is now optional, we had to purchase an ICE escape vehicle solely for use in case of their extended planned and unplanned outages. Last October, we went four days without power all along the Mendocino coast due to hazardous weather conditions and the likelihood of fire due to downed power lines (PGE spent money they were supposed to put into vegetation management into execs' and shareholders' pockets).

With the current economic situation, I think a lot of people are going to be putting off purchasing new cars of any stripe.
 

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I drove my 2019 to Grass Valley, CA, from Mendocino, CA, and there was just ONE CCS charger between those two points (in Williams). East/west routes are barely covered, and if a station is out, well...

Since PGE has decided power delivery is now optional, we had to purchase an ICE escape vehicle solely for use in case of their extended planned and unplanned outages. Last October, we went four days without power all along the Mendocino coast due to hazardous weather conditions and the likelihood of fire due to downed power lines (PGE spent money they were supposed to put into vegetation management into execs' and shareholders' pockets).

With the current economic situation, I think a lot of people are going to be putting off purchasing new cars of any stripe.
When? There are now two CCS charging sites in Williams alone. If you're taking Highway 20 all the way across, there's another site in Yuba City and another in Grass Valley itself.

I agree that the East-West corridors still need more attention, but things are moving fairly quickly. For California, it won't be long before the main focus switches from site coverage to site quality (i.e., number, placement, and speed of the chargers).
 

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I did my first long day-trip in a couple months yesterday. San Jose, CA to Fort Bragg, CA and back (450 miles, round-trip). The roads were pleasantly uncrowded for a nice Saturday in June. It took one fast charging session to make the trip work - a 1 hour stop in Laytonville at a 62.5kW ChargePoint (20%-80%).

Everything worked smoothly, but it got me thinking again about how fragile the DCFC network is. There were only 2 DCFCs there (vs. 8 Tesla SCs). Within 80 miles of Mendocino/Fort Bragg, there are just 3 more DCFC units (1 near Garberville, 2 in Cloverdale). EA has sites in Willits and Garberville that are not yet live, so that'll add 8 more chargers but still - 13 DCFCs for an area of coastline that gets thousands of visitors a day during peak season, and many more traveling through on to Humboldt. I can't really imagine how it'd work if non-Tesla EVs were more than a handful.

I guess my point is that as much as I like EVs, when they start selling in significant numbers, I suspect I'll have to go back to using my ICE for longer trips. The likelihood of getting severely delayed due to the limited infrastructure is just too high. With a gas station, the throughput is high enough that if you wait, it's usually just for a few minutes. But with a 50-60kW DCFC, we're talking potentially several hours, never mind what happens if the units go down altogether. Even Tesla during big holidays has seen this a bit (2+ hour waits in San Luis Obispo last Thanksgiving) and they have much higher numbers of chargers and much faster charging overall.

Now if ranges were expanded to 400+ miles, that would help a little (especially if people can charge overnight before/after their drive), but overall, absent a huge expansion of the network, I don't see how it's going to work. And the time/cost to expand the network is massive.

In the meantime, I think we better enjoy things as they are. When EVs do take off, things are going to be a lot more complicated.
Lately I have been trying to just chill a bit. My goal is 5mi/kwh + I check off no highways and no tolls on Google maps and basically hit the road. Well, after an hour or so of "planning" LOL NC has so many nice state highways with 55MPH speed limits. It can be nice but many of the charging stops only have one charger. I try not to extrapolate.
 

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[/QUOTE]
L3 in CO has grown exponentially, in large part due to these funds. True, most businesses won't both with L3, but along Interstates, they do make sense, and are being built.
[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, none of the dieselgate funds in Colorado were used for any of the existing L2 or DCFC stations. Colorado got $60M from VW in 2018. $50M is being used to electrify the state's vehicle fleet. $10 M is being used to build a network of 34 Charge Point L3 stations. However, none of those dieselgate-funded stations have even started construction. (Charge Point is still selecting sites and negotiating with property owners.) These stations were supposed to be finished last February. Now, the contract completion date is late November. Zach Owens of Colorado's "Charge Ahead" initiative says they may start appearing this summer, but I'm not convinced, having seen multiple delays already. These stations will have 2 150 kW chargers with a total of 4 ports. (The 150 kW will be split between two ports if two cars are charging.) The stations will have the capability of expansion for 2 more 350 kW chargers in future.
 

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L3 in CO has grown exponentially, in large part due to these funds. True, most businesses won't both with L3, but along Interstates, they do make sense, and are being built.
[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, none of the dieselgate funds in Colorado were used for any of the existing L2 or DCFC stations. Colorado got $60M from VW in 2018. $50M is being used to electrify the state's vehicle fleet. $10 M is being used to build a network of 34 Charge Point L3 stations. However, none of those dieselgate-funded stations have even started construction. (Charge Point is still selecting sites and negotiating with property owners.) These stations were supposed to be finished last February. Now, the contract completion date is late November. Zach Owens of Colorado's "Charge Ahead" initiative says they may start appearing this summer, but I'm not convinced, having seen multiple delays already. These stations will have 2 150 kW chargers with a total of 4 ports. (The 150 kW will be split between two ports if two cars are charging.) The stations will have the capability of expansion for 2 more 350 kW chargers in future.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I'd like to see the configuration they are using. Right now, the only split CPE 250 chargers I've seen are 125 kW split between two charging units like this 7-Eleven site:

 

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When the pickup trucks, sell the charging points will increase. It seems the pickup crowd has a louder voice than the eco crowd does.
 

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When the pickup trucks, sell the charging points will increase. It seems the pickup crowd has a louder voice than the eco crowd does.
And with the expected efficiency, they'll need it. I do wonder though what percentage of truck owners use them to road trip? I know a few that do and they have a perfectly capable sedan which would/should be a better candidate.
Unfortunately, Ford just delayed their E150 program to 2022 and the Lincoln partnership with Rivian has dissolved.

.

.

Rivian is also pushing back their timeline.


As well as GMC Hummer EV.


Meanwhile back at you know who.

 

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Meanwhile back at you know who.

Progress at any cost.

 

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I am with Musk on this. He is not producing his vehicles in a retirement home, and besides, rioting killed the coronavirus.

Keith
 

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Discussion Starter #58
So I went back through SuperCharge.info - Tesla opened 49 locations in California in 2019, with 734 outlets. Obviously that's not just oriented at travelers. Meanwhile they sold ~99,500 vehicles in the state over the same period. That's about 1 new supercharging outlet per 12k vehicles sold, and quite a bit less than I expected.

I believe CCS capacity, at least on a plug-per-vehicle basis increased more over the same period - there were about 15-20k CCS vehicles sold (only 27k total non-Tesla) and definitely more than 50 new EA stations at the end of 2019, and those alone added >200 outlets. Granted Tesla had a higher baseline in terms of number of chargers.

So maybe the CCS build-out is actually keeping up (thanks to the still tiny sales of most EVs)?

(Also would appreciate if the Tesla political sniping could go somewhere else - it really doesn't add anything useful to this conversation).
 

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You do realize that there are a total of 2 cases. At least one brought into the factory from outside.

Fremont has over 10,000 employees. In the last two weeks Alameda County health officials have confirmed 1071 new cases which amount to 65.2 per 100,000 countywide. Officials say the actual rate is almost certainly much higher.

2 out of 10,000 employees only amounts to a rate of 20 per 100,000 employees, less than a third the overall county rate.


If anything, this speaks to the effective efforts that Tesla has provided to minimize and maintain the outbreak. You are safer working inside the Tesla factory than outside.

Alameda County has about 1.7 million residents and 4,000 confirmed cases in total. That means 1 out of 425 people are known to have been infected. This doesn't count the people who had the virus but never got tested. With 10,000 employees at Fremont, we would expect there to have been 23.5 cases confirmed if Tesla employees were being infected and tested at the same rate as the general population.

Nice try though but another giant fail.
 

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So I went back through SuperCharge.info - Tesla opened 49 locations in California in 2019, with 734 outlets. Obviously that's not just oriented at travelers. Meanwhile they sold ~99,500 vehicles in the state over the same period. That's about 1 new supercharging outlet per 12k vehicles sold, and quite a bit less than I expected.

I believe CCS capacity, at least on a plug-per-vehicle basis increased more over the same period - there were about 15-20k CCS vehicles sold (only 27k total non-Tesla) and definitely more than 50 new EA stations at the end of 2019, and those alone added >200 outlets. Granted Tesla had a higher baseline in terms of number of chargers.

So maybe the CCS build-out is actually keeping up (thanks to the still tiny sales of most EVs)?

(Also would appreciate if the Tesla political sniping could go somewhere else - it really doesn't add anything useful to this conversation).
Absolutely correct. I've often said that based on the shear number of vehicles that Tesla is adding to the network, relative to the non-Tesla numbers, the Supercharger Network should be dramatically affected in an overcrowding catastrophe. But we just aren't seeing it to any level of discomfort to hear much griping.
Either the speed at which they charge, the number of road tripping use vs local, location logistics, or whatever seems to alleviate the kind of pressure one might expect.
This is why I don't really think non-Tesla drivers will need to be concerned about backups at charging stations especially once they get the percentage of successful charging, number of portals, and charging speed of the vehicles to Supercharger levels.
It will be interesting to see though, how much of an impact the Model Y will have once production hits it's stride. Most projections have the Model Y at 4X the numbers of the Model 3. Tesla's Supercharger team has their hands full. Eventually they plan to produce 20,000,000/year, obviously not all in the US but still, the network will never stop growing, if everything goes as planned.
 
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