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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I am pondering (without any data on the subject). This demo had both a lightweight and aheavy car, but they were both ICE with most of the weight on the front (drivewheel) tires. I wonder if an EV with its low CG and a nearly even weight distribution over the four tires would fare differently.
That's where I'm coming from... And the wheelbase is a bit shorter than most cars in its weight range.
 

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I am pondering (without any data on the subject). This demo had both a lightweight and aheavy car, but they were both ICE with most of the weight on the front (drivewheel) tires. I wonder if an EV with its low CG and a nearly even weight distribution over the four tires would fare differently.
Yes, the heavier EV with the lower CG would behave somewhat differently. The physics of greater mass/inertia to accelerate/stop/turn are not a good thing. Light cars are much more nimble in snow or any low traction situation, as old guys who came of age with Saab FWD and VW RWD, can attest. Narrow tires, low horsepower and 60% of the only 1700# weight over the drive wheels were just magic as compared to US cars of that era.
No, the FWD Bolt at 56/44 is nowhere nearly even weight distribution.
Maybe, YouTube, is not always the best source of reliable information.

jack vines
 

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We are talking about buying something that grants you safety. When it comes to safety vs saving some money…..safety is ALWAYS the correct answer and doesn’t require any second thoughts.
 

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We are talking about buying something that grants you safety. When it comes to safety vs saving some money…..safety is ALWAYS the correct answer and doesn’t require any second thoughts.
There isn't a single thing that couldn't be made more safe. A decision is always made that something has been made safe enough. "Saving money" always factors into when to consider something safe enough.

This flawed thinking is similar to "if it can save even 1 life". We could save thousands of lives if we banned driving, but it wouldn't be worth the cost.

I'll reiterate that I think it's worth the cost to run 4 snow tires to gain the safety, and as I argued, it barely increases cost because having more tires just means they last longer, meaning you don't have to replace them as frequently.
 

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That's completely incorrect. You're not buying something that grants safety, you're buying something that introduces risk.
You mean reduces risk, right ? Not always staying home is safer. Sometimes is the opposite. IMO, contexte matter. The discussion is about 2 vs 4 winter tires. 4 is safer to use vs 2. I think @Digi assessment is correct : safety is worth the money spent on 2 more tires. If you live in a remote area, you have to go once a month to the store to get the goods you need to survive next month, and you drive 10 mph doing it, then maybe 2 vs 4 isn’t that much of a difference. But if you live in a city, definitely buy 4 tires !
 

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You mean reduces risk, right ? Not always staying home is safer. Sometimes is the opposite. IMO, contexte matter. The discussion is about 2 vs 4 winter tires. 4 is safer to use vs 2. I think @Digi assessment is correct : safety is worth the money spent on 2 more tires. If you live in a remote area, you have to go once a month to the store to get the goods you need to survive next month, and you drive 10 mph doing it, then maybe 2 vs 4 isn’t that much of a difference. But if you live in a city, definitely buy 4 tires !
I confused threads thinking this was a discussion about purchasing a car... which is why I removed the line you were able to quote before I caught my mistake.

That said, any talk along the lines of "you can't put a price on safety" is nonsense. We can discuss what we believe is the appropriate limit to spend on safety, but everyone has differing financial means, comfort levels, assessment of risk, skill, etc, etc.

Whenever I see one of those canned responses that involve no thought, I push back. It's my canned response to canned responses.
 

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You mean reduces risk, right ? Not always staying home is safer. Sometimes is the opposite. IMO, contexte matter. The discussion is about 2 vs 4 winter tires. 4 is safer to use vs 2. I think @Digi assessment is correct : safety is worth the money spent on 2 more tires. If you live in a remote area, you have to go once a month to the store to get the goods you need to survive next month, and you drive 10 mph doing it, then maybe 2 vs 4 isn’t that much of a difference. But if you live in a city, definitely buy 4 tires !
Quite correct.
I confused threads thinking this was a discussion about purchasing a car... which is why I removed the line you were able to quote before I caught my mistake.

That said, any talk along the lines of "you can't put a price on safety" is nonsense. We can discuss what we believe is the appropriate limit to spend on safety, but everyone has differing financial means, comfort levels, assessment of risk, skill, etc, etc.

Whenever I see one of those canned responses that involve no thought, I push back. It's my canned response to canned responses.
Quite INCORRECT.
 

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Never, ever buy only two. It will not end well.
 
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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
Yes, the heavier EV with the lower CG would behave somewhat differently. The physics of greater mass/inertia to accelerate/stop/turn are not a good thing. Light cars are much more nimble in snow or any low traction situation, as old guys who came of age with Saab FWD and VW RWD, can attest. Narrow tires, low horsepower and 60% of the only 1700# weight over the drive wheels were just magic as compared to US cars of that era.
No, the FWD Bolt at 56/44 is nowhere nearly even weight distribution.
Maybe, YouTube, is not always the best source of reliable information.

jack vines
It's a lot closer to even weight distribution than 65/35 which is typical of a front wheel drive car. 😉

The weight distribution being more evenly distributed definitely affects the acceleration; I'm also curious how much the more balaced weight effects tail swing, which is what prompted my question.

I am old enough to remember those two stroke SAAB 92s... (I watched Apollo 11 live on TV) and the way they kind of hunkered down in back when coming to a stop. There's so much amazing engineering in that car, although not having the engine available for braking (freewheeling) was a necessary evil with the two-stroke motor used in the early years. I can't imagine going down Vail pass in one of those today with the original brakes 🤣
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Whenever I see one of those canned responses that involve no thought, I push back. It's my canned response to canned responses.
Mine too... But I did not want to seem unappreciative 🙂 Thanks for your thoughtful response. All the thoughtful responses honestly!

I should just pull off the stockers and put on a more practical set of multi compound all seasons.

There's just too much climate variation here... we have June snow storms, and 80° weather in the winter. And it can less than a 2-hour drive between summer conditions and winter conditions. There's nothing quite as exciting as an emergency stop on I-25 with Michelin X-Ice tires on a warm day.
 

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I should just pull off the stockers and put on a more practical set of multi compound all seasons.
Your car, your money, your decision. Based upon being here since they first tried to foist "all-season" tires on the marketplace, there's no such tire.

FWIW, when Nokian first offered an "all-season" designation, I asked a factory rep why the best winter tire manufacturer would risk their reputation by doing this. His answer, "Too many US car owners are lazy and your states are unwilling to do the right thing with regulations; most northern tier countries and provinces require winter tires. You don't. We were losing too many sales by not offering what the customers wanted, even though what they want is the wrong choice."

There's nothing quite as exciting as an emergency stop on I-25 with Michelin X-Ice tires on a warm day.
Please explain what happens? I've been driving on winter tires for sixty years and haven't experienced that excitement.

jack vines
 

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In my opinion, driving attitude and skill is a far bigger influence on snow safety and capability than the number of snow tires you have. And that applies to 2WD vs 4WD as well. I've seen plenty of 4WD vehicles in the ditch while 2WD vehicles were happily rolling past.

Here in Vancouver we don't get that much snow, although I do generally make a few trips into real snow country every year. For well over 4 decades I've only ever driven front wheel drive vehicles, I've only ever put snow tires on the front wheels, and I've never hit anyone, spun out or gone into the ditch because of it. For me snow tires aren't about being able to extend the handling limits of the car but rather being able to get it going from a stop or to be to get up or down a hill.

The Bolt is even less dependent on rear wheel traction than all my other cars because it uses regenerative braking on the front wheels only. There's a big misconception that this only occurs in "L" mode but it applies just as much to "D" mode as well. When you hit that brake pedal in the snow, it's the front wheels that are stopping you. If you're hitting the brake pedal hard enough to engage the rear brakes on snow or ice, you're going to be sliding and the ABS system is going to be chattering away.

If you're the kind of person who complains about how the Bolt handles or worries about which wheels are going to brake traction first even on dry pavement, then maybe you will be better off with 4 snow tires. Me, I never push the Bolt anywhere near its handling limits under any circumstances, especially in snow, and 2 snow tires have served me well.
 

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In my opinion, driving attitude and skill is a far bigger influence on snow safety and capability than the number of snow tires you have. And that applies to 2WD vs 4WD as well. I've seen plenty of 4WD vehicles in the ditch while 2WD vehicles were happily rolling past.

Here in Vancouver we don't get that much snow, although I do generally make a few trips into real snow country every year. For well over 4 decades I've only ever driven front wheel drive vehicles, I've only ever put snow tires on the front wheels, and I've never hit anyone, spun out or gone into the ditch because of it. For me snow tires aren't about being able to extend the handling limits of the car but rather being able to get it going from a stop or to be to get up or down a hill.

The Bolt is even less dependent on rear wheel traction than all my other cars because it uses regenerative braking on the front wheels only. There's a big misconception that this only occurs in "L" mode but it applies just as much to "D" mode as well. When you hit that brake pedal in the snow, it's the front wheels that are stopping you. If you're hitting the brake pedal hard enough to engage the rear brakes on snow or ice, you're going to be sliding and the ABS system is going to be chattering away.

If you're the kind of person who complains about how the Bolt handles or worries about which wheels are going to brake traction first even on dry pavement, then maybe you will be better off with 4 snow tires. Me, I never push the Bolt anywhere near its handling limits under any circumstances, especially in snow, and 2 snow tires have served me well.
Caution, experience and skill vary. We have some members here who report they stay home when there's snow or slick roads. As you say, the individual skill, caution and low risk tolerance can allow some to drive and survive on two snow tires, but that doesn't make it good science. No professional tire store or tire manufacturer will ever recommend snows only on the front of FWDs. None of the tire stores in my area will sell or mount only two on the front. Their corporate loss control department says too much chance of being sued because they didn't save the customer from his own folly.

jack vines
 

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If everyone was forced to play in a parking lot in winter conditions they'd get all the education they need. Jam on your breaks on a Rav 4 even with winter tires at 10mph I think the average person, even the average person who spent their whole driving life in colder climates, would be shocked at the skids you can put yourself in. Set up an autocross course and ask them to run it a few times with their all seasons? They'll know what they need to know about winter driving, which is that they don't know much about winter driving.

Also, if you don't have the confidence, please just don't drive when it's snowing/icing and wait for the roads to be cleared. It's pretty frustrating to be behind the guy going 5mph who is too scared to even get over to let you get by.

As for two winter tires? I think those same people would have a harder time running the course with 2 winters as opposed to 4 all-seasons. They would need time to adjust to the added acceleration and breaking power with the unexpected rear end kicking out. I think that probably simulates what an accident and road situation will be like, false confidence out the butt that makes you lose your butt.
 

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If everyone was forced to play in a parking lot in winter conditions they'd get all the education they need. Jam on your breaks on a Rav 4 even with winter tires at 10mph I think the average person, even the average person who spent their whole driving life in colder climates, would be shocked at the skids you can put yourself in. Set up an autocross course and ask them to run it a few times with their all seasons? They'll know what they need to know about winter driving, which is that they don't know much about winter driving.
Yes, exactly. Understand where the edges of the envelope are for your car and your tires and drive within them. And not just under controlled conditions, but under the current conditions on the road you're actually driving on. When I go out in slippery conditions I test the traction limits for acceleration and braking to get a feel for what I can expect from the car so that I know what I can and can't safely do.
 

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No professional tire store or tire manufacturer will ever recommend snows only on the front of FWDs.
Here in British Columbia the law requires winter tires only on the driven wheels on roads where such tires are required, so there's that.

Assuming that tire manufacturers and retailers will give you the best and most honest advice reminds me of an article I read somewhere once upon a time that talked about office lighting standards and how they kept upping the required lumen levels over time until people started complaining - the article pointed out that the standards were being written by the lighting manufacturers themselves.

I just don't trust manufacturers to be an unbiased source of advice on how much of their product I really need.
 

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Here in British Columbia the law requires winter tires only on the driven wheels on roads where such tires are required, so there's that.

Assuming that tire manufacturers and retailers will give you the best and most honest advice reminds me of an article I read somewhere once upon a time that talked about office lighting standards and how they kept upping the required lumen levels over time until people started complaining - the article pointed out that the standards were being written by the lighting manufacturers themselves.

I just don't trust manufacturers to be an unbiased source of advice on how much of their product I really need.
Of all those whose expertise one might logically trust, are we choosing our legislators to know how tires should be safely used? Those with no demonstrable expertise over the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer? I've never known a FWD car manufacturer to recommend snow tires only on the drive wheels.

jack vines
 

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Of all those whose expertise one might logically trust, are we choosing our legislators to know how tires should be safely used? Those with no demonstrable expertise over the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer? I've never known a FWD car manufacturer to recommend snow tires only on the drive wheels.

jack vines
I'll take this fight, yes. Public roads paid for by public funds and regulated by the public, the public decidedly has interest in making sure you don't kill others. According to US statistics, 17% of our vehicle crashes occur in snowy conditions resulting in 2,000 deaths per year. Tires are easily rated (and are) requiring little discernment on behalf of lawmakers.

If this source can be trusted, it will drop the roughly ~120k accidents in snow conditions caused per year by 5% including a 3% reduction of major accidents and deaths.

This is a low rent place to make the roads safer, we're all burning through tires anyways so the only additional cost is the cost of the wheels over the course of the vehicles life. I wonder what the offset in lower insurance for everyone would be? It'd be something.

Bravo Canada for recognizing a need that's even greater than the US and taking action. 2" on the road, unplowed while still snowing on all-seasons is just flat out dangerous above 10mph. The facts are clear, professional drivers are pretty certain about it and you can easily Google any number of videos showing the differences which are stark and easy to see.
 
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