[atc98092]

record profits on used cars too!

And used cars is really where they make their profit. For new, selling at MSRP doesn't make a lot of money for the dealer, once all the overhead is covered (including the sales person's cut). Used is where they make the big money on sales, along with the service department.

 

[jefro]

Local dealer has Ioniq 5's for about $3500 over. I'd pay that. With inflation you won't be able to pay the next msrp.

 

[Packard V8]

Fictitious conversation but probably accurate

Dealer: 10k over sticker

Me: Fine, but only if you waive the 599 “processing” fee

Dealer: sorry, we have to charge that with every sale

For the first sixty years of car sales, there was no additional document or processing fee cost charged, just part of the sale. The fees originated around the 1960s when dealerships separated their finance and insurance departments, commonly dubbed F&I, from the rest of the dealership. The dealership’s departments — sales, service and so on — made money off various parts of the transaction. The F&I department, meanwhile, took on the processing side to make profits on financing the purchase. The documentation fee was created to cover the F&I overhead if a customer paid cash or used an outside lease. Then, F&I discovered they could also double dip by charging the document fee to customers who used their in-house financing. The thievery got so bad, many states have passed statutes limiting document fees; the ranges are from $65 to $300. The above-mentioned $599 is in one of the states with an especially strong NADA lobby.

jack vines

 

[Fivedoor]

I remember how Mitsubishi dealerships killed the Eclipse GSX. Mitsubishi (the parent company) sighted low sales of the FWD turbo and AWD turbo Eclipse as the reason for going to a FWD V6... meanwhile dealerships were charging $5,000 over MSRP on the FWD turbo version and $10,000 over MSRP for the AWD turbo version. And these prices were back in the late 1990's Equivalent of 10K in 1999 is almost 17K in 2022 dollars.

Many US dealerships think that since the EV's they are selling have a tax incentive that the purchaser won't mind paying more than MSRP for the car... but as long as there is ONE dealership out there willing to sell for MSRP, and you can find that dealership thanks to the internet there is no reason to get taken for a ride.

Keith

 

[SGW]

but as long as there is ONE dealership out there willing to sell for MSRP, and you can find that dealership thanks to the internet there is no reason to get taken for a ride.

People aren’t paying X thousands over MSRP because they don’t know about MSRP dealers. They are doing it because they don’t want to wait (MSRP dealers don’t have any unsold inventory) or because the cost/value still makes sense to them. I don’t think that is being taken for a ride.

 

[Packard V8]

but as long as there is ONE dealership out there willing to sell for MSRP, and you can find that dealership thanks to the internet there is no reason to get taken for a ride. Keith

Local dealerships exist because the majority of car buyers want to go out on a Saturday afternoon, take a 15-minute test drive and drive it home that night.

I mentioned to a potential EV buyer that he could shop the internet, buy from Ft Payne, AL, have it shipped 2274 miles to Spokane. His answer, "You really are a car nut. Sane people wouldn't ever consider that."

jack vines

 

[finallygoingev]

The model will change eventually. Old folks will die off and young folks have no/less issues ordering things online more than old people.

Every Tesla user orders online, picks it up and moves on with life. The Internet for shopping has made the whole browsing in the mall less necessary. Doesn't mean 100% everyone will do that, but pretty much most everyone ordering the Mach-E, F150EV, Lyriq reserved a car, ordered it online and will pick it up.

I'm old so I'll probably die off before this fully changes, but with the pandemic and less cars on dealer lots, I think manufacturers will use this to their advantage and try not to overproduce and be forced to offer discounts for cars on lots.

 

[SGW]

Every Tesla user orders online, picks it up and moves on with life. The Internet for shopping has made the whole browsing in the mall less necessary. Doesn't mean 100% everyone will do that, but pretty much most everyone ordering the Mach-E, F150EV, Lyriq reserved a car, ordered it online and will pick it up.

Modern manufacturing is such that there is no need to test drive the same car you order. I see more manufacturers moving to showrooms and direct ordering. If demand for new EVs (or any vehicle) continues to outpace supply, buyers will become more accustomed to ordering and waiting. I think it is just a question of how quickly manufactures can transition. Dealers have a lobby because they have money, but once the writing is on the wall, I think that will change and they will start to lose their influence.

 

[cehkc]

Dealers should already loose their influence, they completely destroyed any credibility during this shortage. Not that they ever had a high moral standards to begin with. They should lose monopoly on selling cars so manufacturers could sell directly.

I don't need unnecessary extra greedy intermediary whos only goal is to screw me by constant lying and trying to install overpriced useless addons which I don't need. If I know what to buy based on online research and could secure my own financing they have zero value to me while costing extra headache and few extra grand $ on top of it.

 

[Packard V8]

Modern manufacturing is such that there is no need to test drive the same car you order.

Agree. However, if it a newly introduced car or a car one has never driven, for me, an overnight test drive is an absolute must.

Back in another life, I was in a different rental car every week for twenty years. Some were very pleasant surprises as to how good they were. Others were such a huge disappointment or literally impossible for a tall person to drive. Once, I was given a Chrysler Crossfire; a swoopy-looking coupe.

There was no seating position in it comfortable for me. I returned it for a Chrysler 300 sedan; a very comfortable car.

jack vines

 

[seattlite]

....

There was no seating position in it comfortable for me. I returned it for a Chrysler 300 sedan; a very comfortable car.

jack vines

This guy also thought so: https://jalopnik.com/this-man-hated-his-tesla-model-s-so-much-he-traded-it-f-1848538260

 

[Colt Hero]

The documentation fee was created to cover the F&I overhead if a customer paid cash or used an outside lease. Then, F&I discovered they could also double dip by charging the document fee to customers who used their in-house financing. The thievery got so bad, many states have passed statutes limiting document fees; the ranges are from $65 to $300. The above-mentioned $599 is in one of the states with an especially strong NADA lobby.

I think you're over-complicating it.

The "Doc Fee" is just another in a long line of Dealerships "tricks" and scams that allows them to falsely advertise a price on a vehicle for sale.

That's all it is.

And although states have put a limit on these "Doc Fee" numbers, it really doesn't matter what the number is.

All that matters is ... you know what the number is beforehand, so it can be factored into the Out-The-Door price.

What you don't want to happen is to arrive at the Dealership not knowing this number, thinking you're about to sign the papers on a good deal, and then "get the bomb dropped on you" in the form of a last-minute $699 "Doc Fee"!!

... and this, of course, is exactly what the Dealerships had in mind when they concocted this scam.

======
It has nothing at all to do with "filling out paperwork" ... or "prepping your new car" ... or whatever other cockamamie reason the Sales Staff tells you it's for.

It's just another Dealership scam.

 

[MisterJJ]

What you don't want to happen is to arrive at the Dealership not knowing this number, thinking you're about to sign the papers on a good deal, and then "get the bomb dropped on you" in the form of a last-minute $699 "Doc Fee"!!

And there's collusion as well. The dealers in Phoenix all charge the same high doc fee, despite different owners. Another reason why I purchased from Donohoo and had it shipped. I think they quoted a $79 doc fee, had a fee of $199 on the official quote, and actually charged $79.

 

[OliverB]

The model will change eventually. Old folks will die off and young folks have no/less issues ordering things online more than old people.

Every Tesla user orders online, picks it up and moves on with life. The Internet for shopping has made the whole browsing in the mall less necessary. Doesn't mean 100% everyone will do that, but pretty much most everyone ordering the Mach-E, F150EV, Lyriq reserved a car, ordered it online and will pick it up.

I'm old so I'll probably die off before this fully changes, but with the pandemic and less cars on dealer lots, I think manufacturers will use this to their advantage and try not to overproduce and be forced to offer discounts for cars on lots.

Yep, first time in 60 years of car ownership that I have bought a car that is some distance from me and having it shipped. First time i will see my 2022 Bolt is when the car carrier arrives - hopefully next week. Do I have some degree of concern? Sure but it’s under warranty and I can return it if there is a problem that can’t be resolved.

 

[Colt Hero]

@MisterJJ : I’ll buy anywhere on the Eastern seaboard, from northern New England to Florida.

I’ve found Virginia to be the absolute worst for the Doc Fee B.S. Sky high fees across the board, and they don’t stop there, either! They collect local fees, too! And if you buy out-of-State, they’ll hit you with their State taxes on top of all that! Had a co-worker who bought his Ford F250 Diesel and then a loaded Ford Edge in Virginia. Both times he got whacked on the taxes, then had to apply for a rebate. Not sure if he got it all back or not.

Stay away from VA if you don’t live there.

 

[p7wang]

Found my local dealer has them... $10K over MSRP, better off with a Model Y. LOL

 

[Packard V8]

Found my local dealer has them... $10K over MSRP, better off with a Model Y. LOL

Kia dealers must be price-fixing, as you found the same as I did here.

Changing the subject, I'm not usually one who considers style; witness our buying the Bolt, a pure generic hatchback of no style. However, JMHO, the Kia EV6 is gorgeous and the Tesla Model Y is NOT.

jack vines

 

[Packard V8]

Just test drove one of the first two EV6 AWDs ($54,900 MSRP) at the local Kia dealer and was very impressed. It's a clear step up from the Bolt; quieter, quicker, better handling, much better looking and if/when the 800w chargers come on line, much faster charging.

But then there's the $70,000 OTD price; (the only thing negotiable is the $3,795 comprehensive ten-year warranty and the $329 VIN ETCH). For that price, it ought to be MUCH better than our 2017 Bolt Premier, which when new was $45,000 OTD.

jack vines

 

[SpicyBolt]

But then there's the $70,000 OTD price; the only thing negotiable is the $3,700 comprehensive ten-year warranty. For that price, it ought to be MUCH better than our 2017 Bolt Premier, which when new was $45,000 OTD.

jack vines

When you say OTD for the EV6, do you mean including tax, title and license? And is that before or after factoring in the $7500 tax credit, and any available incentives in your state? Same question regarding your $45k OTD Bolt, which still had the $7500 tax credit available when you bought it.

I'm trying to get a handle on what people mean on this forum when they say "OTD".

 

[Packard V8]

My OTD above is what it would cost anyone to drive it away, taxes, title, fees, additional dealer profit or discount from MSRP.

Separately should be mentioned is the negotiable add-ons; whether the customer was suckered for the additional $3,800 warranty, VIN ETCH, Scotchguard, crystal finish protection, floor mats, wheel locks, nitrogen fill, et al.

The federal income tax credit is an individual thing and IMHO should not be included in the OTD, but definitely should be mentioned as to whether it is still applicable to the vehicle under discussion.

Much debated here is how the OTD should reflect individual discounts not available to everyone; i.e. brother-in-law owns the dealership, GM card points, loyalty discount, conquest discount, Costco discount, state and utility rebates.

Bottom line - full disclosure is better than just tossing out a number without context.

jack vines

The 2022 Kia EV6 is a compact SUV that features Pedestrian Detection, Wireless Charging, and Adaptive Cruise Control w/Stop and Go. Leasing the Kia EV6 can be a good option through a variety of lease deals, options, and packages. The average lease payment for the Kia EV6 is $685/mo with $2,000 due at signing for a 36-month term with 12,000 annual mileage limit. Average monthly lease payments for the same deal but with 24-month or 48-month term lengths are $889/mo and $589/mo respectively.

I asked the salesman about the above and he said don't believe everything you see on the internet. The current Kia lease deal is the worst he's ever seen; approx $1200 a month. They want buyers to pay cash or finance. The monthlies on finance with $10,000 down and 60 months would be $1067.

The 2022 Kia EV6 doesn't have an advertised lease deal as of this writing. However, given the popularity of leasing, we think it's just a matter of time before the automaker begins offering lease specials. Having said that, we think it's possible that Kia may not pass along a $7,500 federal EV tax credit in the form of lease cash.