Yes! A friend of mine spotted a couple of them in West Sacramento on I-80; probably because the fuel cell filling station (the only one that I know of) is right off of Harbor Blvd. there at the fuel cell HQ on Industrial Blvd. Anyhow, he followed one of them for a while and got a kick out of the water coming from the tailpipe! I've been looking for them around Sacto for a while and have yet to spot one.

 

Anyhow, he followed one of them for a while and got a kick out of the water coming from the tailpipe!

Sorry to "burst that bubble" but all gasoline vehicle eject water from the exhaust pipe. Look up what makes a molecule of heptane or octane and combine all the hydrogen atoms with oxygen to make H2O using a chemical equation. You will see that there are plenty of H2O molecules per heptane or octane molecule. So all hydrocarbons (the name implies "water") do have H2O as its product during combustion (oxidizing).

What makes gasoline a contaminating fuel are the CO2 molecules, excess heat, and some other contaminants due to incomplete combustion, additives, or high temperatures reacting with the nitrogen.

The advantages of gasoline as a fuel is its facility to be pumped and stored at ambient temperatures. Hydrogen needs to be pressurized or converted to a supercold liquid to be transported and pumped. So until a chemist develops a new fuel that contaminates much less than gasoline, we will be better going all the way to electric storage in batteries than using hydrogen and fuel cells to extend our range.

 

Well I'll be darned. I jus looked up hydrogen fueling near me, and found Placerville has one. And there's one in Citrus Heights, Rocklin, Truckee...
Propel Fuels. Who knew? Hey, Well, more to the electric party!

The Mirai's advantage is, it can fill it's tank as fast as an ICE car. Good for Toyota. Anything that can help replace the ICE car. Wonder how much hydrogen costs compared to gasoline?

 

Last time I checked (2008?), it was over $10/gge.


Remember, the hydrogen is produced using steam reformation of natural gas. The carbon is released into the atmosphere. Until hydrogen is produced with renewable electricity, from water, it's anything but "clean". Hydrogen should be thought of as an energy carrier, like a battery.

 

Yes, glad you are starting to see more out and about.

Back in 2006 GM launched a fleet of 120 of them, and gave the keys away in a lottery to lucky drivers that lived near the refueling stations. The GM fuel cell fleet accumulated over 3 million real world miles in testing and lots of lucky folks got to experience a quick, silent, fun EV.

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm...s/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2013/Oct/1022-fc-equinox.html

and to your point, as they are still working out exactly how to charge for fill-ups, all the lease deals include all you can eat fuel!
Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai currently lease FCEVs.

 

I bet some were converted to full EVs by removing the fuel cell and hydrogen tanks, then increasing the battery size. They already have electric motors moving the wheels. BTW, those fuel cell Equinox vehicles (I have the User Manual) are historically the very first electric powered CUV/SUVs.

 

This looks all nice and clean...but I'm going to have to be the bear who drops shade on this alternative energy vehicle Kumbaya moment. I'm open as the next concerned Joe, but aren't Hydrogen cell vehicles simply greenwashed pigs in disguise? Don't these cars, when calculating for wheel-to-wheel emissions, emit more CO2 than Gasoline powered ICEv's? At best a 30% non-weighted reduction.

All of the commercial Hydrogen cell refueling producers/operators use Hydrogen steam reforming or commonly: steam methane reformation because its like 80% cheaper than any other method. Additionally, I have yet to see a Hydrogen cell BigRig tanker truck moving finished hydrogen from the refinery to the "H-Pump".

In reality, hydrogen (H) at-the-pump comes from the Gasification of coal or Natural Gas. The U.S. doesn't import a lot of Natural gas, but produces it domestically which is commonly extracted via hydraulic fracking. Of course EV's use grid electricity, the majority of which comes from NG or coal...but not in States like California. California only uses about 33% of its energy from NG/coal. The same holds true for Oregon. Whereas H refining has no chance of economically using renewable energy in the conversion process.

Isn't using a Hydrogen cell vehicle tantamount to Importing pollution? Creating emissions elsewhere, then pretending that the amount of emissions is "Zero" when the vehicle is moving. Don't get me started about being a slave to some multinational chemical company...again. Where one is forced to go somewhere to get energy for their vehicle - and rely on the goodwill of that company NOT to up the price of their fuel by 50% in a short span (the history of retail petrochemical producers provides a clue). Who longs for that indentured servitude anymore? Not anybody that has the freedom to wake up, walk in their garage, to see a full tank of energy "pumped in" overnight.

But again, I'm open to an explanation as to why H-cell personal transportation isn't a total crock of s♄i⚚.

 

Don't get me started about being a slave to some multinational chemical company...again. Where one is forced to go somewhere to get energy for their vehicle - and rely on the goodwill of that company NOT to up the price of their fuel by 50% in a short span (the history of retail petrochemical producers provides a clue). Who longs for that indentured servitude anymore? Not anybody that has the freedom to wake up, walk in their garage, to see a full tank of energy "pumped in" overnight.

But again, I'm open to an explanation as to why H-cell personal transportation isn't a total crock of s♄i⚚.

In all fairness, there are people working on home refueling stations for HFCVs.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1108482_simplefuel-home-hydrogen-fuel-dispenser-wins-1-million-doe-prize

However, I do share your skepticism. I think the entire scheme is unworkable on several levels and will only become a reality if it is forced on us.

 

Wow, I plead ignorance. I had no idea the way they produce hydrogen results in more CO2. And I hate fracking more than anything! And yeah, I was ignoring the whole idea of getting "hooked" on another commodity who's supply chain is subject to the same downsides as petroleum. Very good point.

So the CO2 produced as a hydrogen production by product is not captured and used elsewhere?

 

So the CO2 produced as a hydrogen production by product is not captured and used elsewhere?

Hydrogen produced by coal gasification without carbon sequestration will release almost twice as much carbon to the atmosphere per unit of energy as is contained in gasoline.

Natural gas emits 50 to 60 percent less carbon dioxide (CO2) when combusted in a new, efficient natural gas power plant compared with emissions from a typical new coal plant.

• Thus NG fired electricity production isn't "clean" at all, but almost twice as "clean" as coal - CO2 emissions wise

Common industrial electrolyzers have a nominal hydrogen production efficiency of around 70%. High power dissipation value is the most important drawback of such systems since electric power expense has the largest share in the price of electrolytic hydrogen.

• Thus, generating electricity with NG loses about 40% to heat, then using that electricity to produce Hydrogen loses another 30%.

Technologies are emerging to isolate this carbon dioxide from the atmosphere by
sequestering it in the ocean or in geological formations; however, the long-term effects of carbon
sequestration and storage security are not entirely known. Geologic or ocean storage of carbon
dioxide could prove to be a difficult, costly, or even impossible solution.

• Thus: Carbon Sequestration is vaporware

Currently, most of the world’s electricity is produced by combusting fossil fuels. It is very
unlikely that hydrogen produced by mostly fossil fuel electricity will ever be competitive with
hydrogen produced directly from the fossil fuels since the efficiency of electricity production is
much less than direct hydrogen production. Fossil fuel feedstocks will be more expensive per
unit of hydrogen if they are combusted to create electricity first.

The way I understand these facts is that:
A.) Production of Hydrogen is only economically feasible using coal or NG as a feedstock.
B.) Production of Hydrogen using electricity doesn't even begin to make sense.
C.) Any type of Hydrogen production creates unnecessary C02 emissions where far more efficient options are present (EV's)

 

I had the chance to drive one, and I almost did. Then I was offered a test drive in a Model X.

/cool story bro

 

I remember reading back a few weeks ago there was some sort of hydrogen supply delivery issue in CA and Toyota lent out ICE vehicles to Mirai drivers who were depending on the fuel cell vehicles for daily work commutes.


Sucks when there is only one source for your fuel...


Hydrogen Shortage Hits Hard: Toyota Mirai Owners Urged To Top Up Frequently

 

I remember reading back a few weeks ago there was some sort of hydrogen supply delivery issue in CA and Toyota lent out ICE vehicles to Mirai drivers who were depending on the fuel cell vehicles for daily work commutes.

Sucks when there is only one source for your fuel...

Hydrogen Shortage Hits Hard: Toyota Mirai Owners Urged To Top Up Frequently

It's happening again.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loc...s/local/Explosion-Reported-at-Industrial-Facility-in-Santa-Clara-510718081.html was in the local news.

Resulted in https://www.greencarreports.com/new....com/news/1123449_hydrogen-supply-pinch-affects-san-francisco-fuel-cell-drivers (posted June 6th, 2019)

As of Wednesday night, 9 out of the 11 passenger-vehicle hydrogen stations in the Bay Area were down due to a hydrogen shortage—a status that remained the same going back to Monday. An explosion on Saturday, June 1, at a facility owned and operated by the chief hydrogen supplier for the region, Air Products and Chemicals Inc., is related to that shortage.

 

A couple of years ago I got a mailer from Toyota asking me to test drive a Mirai but the cost of the car was something like 75k so I figured for that I could buy a Volt and a BoltEV and besides the hydrogen fuel locations are / were few and far between; at that time the only one I knew of around here (Sacramento) was at the Hydrogen Fuel Cell HQ but now I see they have one called Linde https://cafcp.org/content/west-sacramento ;looks like MSRP now is $58,365

Still way too much of a hassle. EV is the way to go for us.

 

...Still too much an too much hassle. EV is the way to go for us.

And EV is still the only vehicle where you can produce your own "fuel" from home i.e. via solar panels for example.

 

Ok pal. Drink it in. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/toyota-mirai-exhaust-water

 

A lot of water comes out of the tailpipe of every ICE car: the Mirai burns hydrogen and oxygen (from air) and emits only water (zero carbon dioxide), while a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle burns hydrocarbons and oxygen (from the air) to produce carbon dioxide and water. The water in the exhaust is usually in gas form (not liquid), so it's not noticeable. But some of it does condense in the exhaust system of every ICE vehicle, so water trickling out of the tailpipe is common on gasoline powered vehicles too.

While gasoline and diesel powered ICE vehicles are required to get smog checks, hydrogen powered ICE vehicles are exempt from smog checks in California. This is curious, as one of the sources of air pollution from any ICE engine is related to the engine itself, regardless of what fuel it burns. These include nitrogen oxides and unburned hydrocarbons from oil that gets past the various seals in the engine (piston rings and valve seals). The ICE engine wears with use, and these pollutants can increase with wear.

https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/Smog_Check_Requirements_by_Vehicle_Type.pdf

 

I think we can all agree, the BEV is the cleaner way to go. And yeah, it sure is cool to be able to juice up at home. Lots of really good and interesting information presented here guys. Thanks! Most informative.

 

$10/gal is pretty expensive. I'd like to see solar powered electrolysis too, as well as solar powered water desalination. But only so much real estate to plant solar panels and wind generation on. Should be a piece of the puzzle, as they say.

 

I was going solar anyway, so we added 10 additional 335 watt LG panels to my system (which now totals 40 335 watt LG panels) so it would cover the Bolt electrical consumption for driving 50mi five days/week.


Solar powered car.....

 

I used to work at a place that had one of these cars. I wasn't on the project, and I am not sure exactly what they were doing with it (or who they were doing it for). But the amusing part was the note printed on the windshield

"Do not let tank get below 1/4. Closest hydrogen fuel station is 50 miles away."

Another amusing bit, the hydrogen fuel station was on a campus of an OEM that was not Toyota.

 

Oops: I misspoke. The Mirai's fuel cell technology converts hydrogen and oxygen into electrical energy and water. It does not have an ICE engine, like the early hydrogen vehicles. I am such a dope. Let good old Popular Science put in terms we can all understand.

https://www.popsci.com/how-hydrogen-vehicles-work

And yet, it seems obvious that the process of converting hydrocarbons into hydrogen and then shipping it to fueling stations is painfully inefficient compared to simply plugging electrical power into a vehicle to charge it up. The comparative cost for the hydrogen in a Mirai and the electricity in a Bolt make it obvious: it isn't even close.

Mirai: $13.99/kg of hydrogen x 3.81 kg = $53.38 / 310 miles = 17 cents per mile (cost of getting to and from the fueling station is not included: fuel cost is 'typical cost' per CA Fuel Cell Partnership)

Bolt; 60kWh / 238 miles x 12 cents / kWh = 3 cents per mile (electricity rate is for off-peak charging with PG&E, EV-A plan - available to every homeowner in northern California)

Somebody should use the cost comparison spreadsheet that's posted by another member of this forum to calculate the comparative total cost of ownership of these two vehicles. It will take some tweaking due to the free hydrogen offered for the first three years of ownership.

 

Wow! $53 to fill a hydrogen tank in a Mirai? That's as much if not more than what it cost to fill my now retired Subaru! And producing hydrogen from hydrocarbon stock releases more CO2, AND it has to be transported to filling stations. Doesn't sound so cool as I thought now. I love not having to visit filling stations and no longer supporting the fossil fuel industry. Yeah yeah, I know the Bolt isn't free of fossil fuels 100%, it has plastic and rubber...yada yada. We should be saving petroleum for the OTHER things we make with it, not burning it!

 

I love not having to visit filling stations and no longer supporting the fossil fuel industry. Yeah yeah, I know the Bolt isn't free of fossil fuels 100%, it has plastic and rubber...yada yada. We should be saving petroleum for the OTHER things we make with it, not burning it!

Yep. The Bolt isn't perfect but it's better than the alternatives ... :laugh:

 

Another added expense for fuel cell vehicles versus BEVs: maintenance. Since the fuel cells use oxygen from the air, an air filter needs to be replaced: every 30,000 miles or three years in normal use on the Mirai. Also, the ion exchanger element needs to be replaced every 35,000 miles or 3-1/2 years on the Mirai. The air filter is probably cheap, but replacing the ion exchanger element sounds expensive: the part alone costs $272.13. It's in the coolant circuit, so the coolant may need to be drained and probably replaced.

Servicing a Mirai may be an expensive process. For at least some maintenance or repairs, the hydrogen tank needs to be fully drained and backfilled with helium. Bleeding off the hydrogen must be done outdoors and in a clear area. But it looks like only major maintenance or repairs require an empty hydrogen tank. I would guess that replacing the ion exchanger element falls into this category.

On the Mirai, the hydrogen storage tank(s) require replacement every fifteen years, regardless of mileage.

 

I don't think FCEV are, or will be competing against BEV; instead, they may well supplant the ICE as a more efficient device for converting chemical energy into motion (via the electrical energy stage).

The Mirai has a traction battery, which makes it nolens volens hybrid, in which the FC is more or less a functional equivalent of the ICE in the Gen 2 Volt. Perhaps we will soon see a plug-in Mirai with a Prius Prime-size traction battery, which could improve its range by maybe 20-30%.

Also I wonder what we will see in the field of FC's that run on biofuel, like biodiesel or alcohol - both of which can be a part of a carbon-neutral cycle and are easier and safer to transport and store than hydrogen.