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Well I'll be darned. I jus looked up hydrogen fueling near me, and found Placerville has one. And there's one in Citrus Heights, Rocklin, Truckee...
Propel Fuels. Who knew? Hey, Well, more to the electric party!

The Mirai's advantage is, it can fill it's tank as fast as an ICE car. Good for Toyota. Anything that can help replace the ICE car. Wonder how much hydrogen costs compared to gasoline?

Last time I checked (2008?), it was over $10/gge.


Remember, the hydrogen is produced using steam reformation of natural gas. The carbon is released into the atmosphere. Until hydrogen is produced with renewable electricity, from water, it's anything but "clean". Hydrogen should be thought of as an energy carrier, like a battery.
 

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Last time I checked (2008?), it was over $10/gge.


Remember, the hydrogen is produced using steam reformation of natural gas. The carbon is released into the atmosphere. Until hydrogen is produced with renewable electricity, from water, it's anything but "clean". Hydrogen should be thought of as an energy carrier, like a battery.
One of the limiting issues with solar and wind power is storage. Hydrogen by electrolysis is a way to create a storage system. The next requirement is how to get it back into electricity. I hope the tests with Hydrogen powered autos will help to provide a cost effective and reliable method. I have no idea how polluting the production of a Hydrogen fuel cell is, ie the materials required, energy to manufacture, etc. But we all know that the current Li battery manufacturing technology also has its issues with pollution and cost. We need better, low cost, low impact storage technologies.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
$10/gal is pretty expensive. I'd like to see solar powered electrolysis too, as well as solar powered water desalination. But only so much real estate to plant solar panels and wind generation on. Should be a piece of the puzzle, as they say.
 

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I was going solar anyway, so we added 10 additional 335 watt LG panels to my system (which now totals 40 335 watt LG panels) so it would cover the Bolt electrical consumption for driving 50mi five days/week.


Solar powered car..... :D
 

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I used to work at a place that had one of these cars. I wasn't on the project, and I am not sure exactly what they were doing with it (or who they were doing it for). But the amusing part was the note printed on the windshield

"Do not let tank get below 1/4. Closest hydrogen fuel station is 50 miles away."

Another amusing bit, the hydrogen fuel station was on a campus of an OEM that was not Toyota.
 

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Oops: I misspoke. The Mirai's fuel cell technology converts hydrogen and oxygen into electrical energy and water. It does not have an ICE engine, like the early hydrogen vehicles. I am such a dope. Let good old Popular Science put in terms we can all understand.

https://www.popsci.com/how-hydrogen-vehicles-work

And yet, it seems obvious that the process of converting hydrocarbons into hydrogen and then shipping it to fueling stations is painfully inefficient compared to simply plugging electrical power into a vehicle to charge it up. The comparative cost for the hydrogen in a Mirai and the electricity in a Bolt make it obvious: it isn't even close.

Mirai: $13.99/kg of hydrogen x 3.81 kg = $53.38 / 310 miles = 17 cents per mile (cost of getting to and from the fueling station is not included: fuel cost is 'typical cost' per CA Fuel Cell Partnership)

Bolt; 60kWh / 238 miles x 12 cents / kWh = 3 cents per mile (electricity rate is for off-peak charging with PG&E, EV-A plan - available to every homeowner in northern California)

Somebody should use the cost comparison spreadsheet that's posted by another member of this forum to calculate the comparative total cost of ownership of these two vehicles. It will take some tweaking due to the free hydrogen offered for the first three years of ownership.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Wow! $53 to fill a hydrogen tank in a Mirai? :eek: That's as much if not more than what it cost to fill my now retired Subaru! And producing hydrogen from hydrocarbon stock releases more CO2, AND it has to be transported to filling stations. :( Doesn't sound so cool as I thought now. I love not having to visit filling stations and no longer supporting the fossil fuel industry. Yeah yeah, I know the Bolt isn't free of fossil fuels 100%, it has plastic and rubber...yada yada. We should be saving petroleum for the OTHER things we make with it, not burning it!
 

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I love not having to visit filling stations and no longer supporting the fossil fuel industry. Yeah yeah, I know the Bolt isn't free of fossil fuels 100%, it has plastic and rubber...yada yada. We should be saving petroleum for the OTHER things we make with it, not burning it!
Yep. The Bolt isn't perfect but it's better than the alternatives ... :laugh:
 

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Another added expense for fuel cell vehicles versus BEVs: maintenance. Since the fuel cells use oxygen from the air, an air filter needs to be replaced: every 30,000 miles or three years in normal use on the Mirai. Also, the ion exchanger element needs to be replaced every 35,000 miles or 3-1/2 years on the Mirai. The air filter is probably cheap, but replacing the ion exchanger element sounds expensive: the part alone costs $272.13. It's in the coolant circuit, so the coolant may need to be drained and probably replaced.

Servicing a Mirai may be an expensive process. For at least some maintenance or repairs, the hydrogen tank needs to be fully drained and backfilled with helium. Bleeding off the hydrogen must be done outdoors and in a clear area. But it looks like only major maintenance or repairs require an empty hydrogen tank. I would guess that replacing the ion exchanger element falls into this category.

On the Mirai, the hydrogen storage tank(s) require replacement every fifteen years, regardless of mileage.
 

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I don't think FCEV are, or will be competing against BEV; instead, they may well supplant the ICE as a more efficient device for converting chemical energy into motion (via the electrical energy stage).

The Mirai has a traction battery, which makes it nolens volens hybrid, in which the FC is more or less a functional equivalent of the ICE in the Gen 2 Volt. Perhaps we will soon see a plug-in Mirai with a Prius Prime-size traction battery, which could improve its range by maybe 20-30%.

Also I wonder what we will see in the field of FC's that run on biofuel, like biodiesel or alcohol - both of which can be a part of a carbon-neutral cycle and are easier and safer to transport and store than hydrogen.
 

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I remember reading back a few weeks ago there was some sort of hydrogen supply delivery issue in CA and Toyota lent out ICE vehicles to Mirai drivers who were depending on the fuel cell vehicles for daily work commutes.

Sucks when there is only one source for your fuel...

Hydrogen Shortage Hits Hard: Toyota Mirai Owners Urged To Top Up Frequently
It's happening again.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Explosion-Reported-at-Industrial-Facility-in-Santa-Clara-510718081.html was in the local news.

Resulted in https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1123449_hydrogen-supply-pinch-affects-san-francisco-fuel-cell-drivers (posted June 6th, 2019)
As of Wednesday night, 9 out of the 11 passenger-vehicle hydrogen stations in the Bay Area were down due to a hydrogen shortage—a status that remained the same going back to Monday. An explosion on Saturday, June 1, at a facility owned and operated by the chief hydrogen supplier for the region, Air Products and Chemicals Inc., is related to that shortage.
 
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