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A Facebook friend of mine posted a pic showing the cost of gas in NZ is 3.18 per liter, or 12 NZ dollars per gallon ($7.46 US). Check out the thread that emerged when I posted that it was time to go electric. Whoever John Chadwick is, he is simply emotionally opposed to EVs and facts will not sway him. Anyway, I thought the exchange might be entertaining. If you have had similar online debates please share.

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I had one last week. In an anti-EV argument, this guy segued to talking about solar panels and said this:
"it's impossible for solar panels to create more energy than it takes to make them, first law of thermodynamics,you can't get out more than you put in.... Same as windmills, same as batteries, same as everything.... You need to stop drinking the coolaid mate"

How can you have a discussion with someone who is that clueless?
 

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I had one last week. In an anti-EV argument, this guy segued to talking about solar panels and said this:
"it's impossible for solar panels to create more energy than it takes to make them, first law of thermodynamics,you can't get out more than you put in.... Same as windmills, same as batteries, same as everything.... You need to stop drinking the coolaid mate"

How can you have a discussion with someone who is that clueless?
Solar and wind energy are both the result of nuclear energy that is being produced 93 million miles away from us. And there are a couple billion years worth of it left.
 

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The extra costs can be significant for some of these EVs. If you're spending tens of thousands of dollars more to get an EV over the typical ICE vehicle you'd normally buy, you're probably not going to save any money on gas over the life of the vehicle. Or it may take a decade to recuperate the extra costs in gas savings. Because, face it, those tens of thousands of dollars could buy a lot of gas for your cheap Civic or whatever ICE vehicle.

An obvious example: If you normally drive something like a Civic and you go out and buy a new Model 3, you're not saving any money over something like a Civic. Hopefully you bought the Model 3 because you like it, not because you thought you'd make a killing on gas savings (you will, but you have that $60k Model 3 cost!).

When more EVs are on parity with some of the more affordable ICE vehicles, nobody will be able to argue this anymore.
 

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The guy at my fave lunch truck (who's been serving me for 24 years) started complaining about $5 gas, and ended up telling me that my EV was worse for the environment bc it was powered by the local garbage incinerator. I explained I charged at night, out in the 'burbs, and most of my power then came from the local nuke plant.
 

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The extra costs can be significant for some of these EVs. If you're spending tens of thousands of dollars more to get an EV over the typical ICE vehicle you'd normally buy, you're probably not going to save any money on gas over the life of the vehicle. Or it may take a decade to recuperate the extra costs in gas savings. Because, face it, those tens of thousands of dollars could buy a lot of gas for your cheap Civic or whatever ICE vehicle.

An obvious example: If you normally drive something like a Civic and you go out and buy a new Model 3, you're not saving any money over something like a Civic. Hopefully you bought the Model 3 because you like it, not because you thought you'd make a killing on gas savings (you will, but you have that $60k Model 3 cost!).

When more EVs are on parity with some of the more affordable ICE vehicles, nobody will be able to argue this anymore.
It all just keeps going around again and again. In the 70s during the gas crisis more than a few folks traded in their land-barges for something that got better gas mileage to “save money”. Sure, get hosed on the value of your trade-in, buy a new car over MSRP, and “save money”? Most would have been better off to just keep driving the barge. Once you include the cost of replacing a vehicle that doesn’t actually need replacement it is almost impossible to come out ahead, gas or electric.
 

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The guy at my fave lunch truck (who's been serving me for 24 years) started complaining about $5 gas, and ended up telling me that my EV was worse for the environment bc it was powered by the local garbage incinerator. I explained I charged at night, out in the 'burbs, and most of my power then came from the local nuke plant.
"yeah but at least the oil companies aren't getting a huge chunk of my paycheck every week"
 

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It all just keeps going around again and again. In the 70s during the gas crisis more than a few folks traded in their land-barges for something that got better gas mileage to “save money”. Sure, get hosed on the value of your trade-in, buy a new car over MSRP, and “save money”? Most would have been better off to just keep driving the barge. Once you include the cost of replacing a vehicle that doesn’t actually need replacement it is almost impossible to come out ahead, gas or electric.
Yeah, I learned the hard way. I have a new 2021 Bolt Premier that I bought last year instead of buying out my 2018 Civic lease. I got a really great deal on the Bolt! But it's still significantly more expensive than just buying the Civic... even when gas prices are this high! I should have bought the Civic, sold it and then bought the Bolt with the monies. Though, if I did that, I may not have got the Bolt before the recall!

That's OK. The Bolt is the best car I've ever had. I'm pretty happy even if I know that I won't save any money over the life of the car... unless gas prices get silly high somehow! I projected about 20 years of gas savings needed to recuperate the upfront cost difference of the Bolt and Civic. I don't drive too much.
 

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These arguments always turn in to apples vs oranges discussions - you can always spend less money per mile by buying a cheap ICE car, but then you're stuck driving a cheap ICE car (with all the maintenance, fuel, etc. that comes with it) that's not comparable with a new EV.

The honest 5 yr cost of ownership analysis I've seen (similar class new cars, ICE vs EV) says that EV's win - you pay more up front, and eventually get ahead because of lower fuel and maintenance costs. It all comes down to that "similar class" qualifier - it keeps the price of the ICE car up and narrows the initial cost difference enough for the other factors to eventually catch up.

I bought mine because I like the idea of it (yes, I'm an engineer), not because it may eventually cost me less over time. You'll never convince anyone to buy an EV that just doesn't like them, for whatever reason. Lead by example - they may eventually come around on their own.
 

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The battery replacement assumption is a common objection in my experience. People genuinely think you will have to replace your battery after 8-10 years. If true, this would really tip the calculations. I ask them how often they've replaced an engine. Well, hardly ever. Batteries are the same way. When the rest of the car is worn out, say at 200,000+ miles, most EV batteries will still have enough capacity to make a cheap and reliable commuter car.
 

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The battery replacement assumption is a common objection in my experience. People genuinely think you will have to replace your battery after 8-10 years. If true, this would really tip the calculations. I ask them how often they've replaced an engine. Well, hardly ever. Batteries are the same way. When the rest of the car is worn out, say at 200,000+ miles, most EV batteries will still have enough capacity to make a cheap and reliable commuter car.
The problem with projecting life of batteries is that some EVs and their battery packs haven't been out for 8-10 years to see what happens to those designs.

Though, having seen what happens to Leafs, I'm quite confident to assume that EV batteries with active thermal management will almost certainly last a "long time" (10-15+ years?).
 

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The reality is few folks buy or don’t buy a car based on real budget numbers, they buy it because they want it. If it was really about dollars and practicality, there would be no such thing as a Corvette or Ferrari. I would be so much further ahead financially if I had just babied my ’88 Civic ICE into hanging on this long, and never purchased an EV at all, but what fun is that. I don’t regret my choices too much, I learned something from each one. Just part of the “tuition of life”.
 

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People chose a Honda Civic in purpose to compare to a Bolt EV. Please tell me what Honda Civic has the features the Bolt EV has ? Start with what the teens nowadays like : HP and Torque. Discussion closed.

Honda Civic 2022 here costs (as per Canada site The all-new 2022 Civic Sedan | Honda Canada ) at comparable options as the Bolt EV :
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A Bolt EV 2022 (2022 Bolt EV (chevroletoffers.ca) ) :
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So the price is about the same, the problem is the Honda comes with the gas budget per month and oil change while the Bolt EV ... nothing else.
 

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People chose a Honda Civic in purpose to compare to a Bolt EV. Please tell me what Honda Civic has the features the Bolt EV has ? Start with what the teens nowadays like : HP and Torque. Discussion closed.

Honda Civic 2022 here costs (as per Canada site The all-new 2022 Civic Sedan | Honda Canada ) at comparable options as the Bolt EV :
View attachment 43404

A Bolt EV 2022 (2022 Bolt EV (chevroletoffers.ca) ) :
View attachment 43406

So the price is about the same, the problem is the Honda comes with the gas budget per month and oil change while the Bolt EV ... nothing else.
Too general. My situation is that my 2018 Civic was going to cost like $12k to buy out, but I returned it and instead paid $32k for a new 2021 Bolt EV Premier. I am not saving money and will never save money compared to just buying that Civic.

It would be different if I bought the Civic, sold it, and used the cash to buy the Bolt. But that's not what happened.
 

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Too general. My situation is that my 2018 Civic was going to cost like $12k to buy out, but I returned it and instead paid $32k for a new 2021 Bolt EV Premier. I am not saving money and will never save money compared to just buying that Civic.

It would be different if I bought the Civic, sold it, and used the cash to buy the Bolt. But that's not what happened.
I am talking about the case of one who wants to buy a Civic and disregards a Bolt EV nowadays. Not a lease residual buy. And by the way, even for the Civic there is a backorder here.
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