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Discussion Starter #1
where it counts...charging infrastructure. Everything I have seen, and read about the Model 3 tells me it has nothing I want...except the Supercharger network.

We did a trip to Tennessee last week that would have been 362 miles each way on interstates. But because of the pitiful non-Tesla fast charge network, it was 500 miles each way to reach fast chargers. We had a lovely drive out, on scenic mountain roads, in beautiful weather. The weather on the return trip was cold, rainy, and foggy. But the kicker was arriving back in Blacksburg on a game night!

The sleepy college town was a madhouse, full of crazed ball fanatics. We managed to arrive while most were in the stadium doing whatever it is they do there. Unfortunately, the normally empty Municipal Building lot was full of SUVs. One was parked in the EVs only parking spot. There are no hotel rooms within fifty miles of Blacksburg on a game night, so we went around the corner to the police station and rang the bell. After explaining our situation, the dispatcher buzzed us in. We hung around for 20 minutes, while the friendly policeman made some calls, to check out the rules on this. It turns out, they could tow the SUV, if the sign had said, Towing Enforced, but it didn't. Worse yet, the city actually rented out the parking spots to reservation holders. The city had rented out the only EV fast charging space in a hundred miles to a football fan...in an SUV!! I asked if I could park on the street, at the curb, facing the wrong way, and charge. They were fine with that. We walked back to the charger to check out the situation. The cord would never reach, but the officer said I could drive over the curb, onto the sidewalk, if I had enough ground clearance. No chance there. The curbs were pretty high, and square edged. Luckily, there was no curb at the entrance to the parking lot. and I was able to drive directly up the sidewalk from the end, and there was just enough room between a young tree, and a sign post, with the mirrors folded in, to get to the charger. We wanted to charge for more than an hour to get enough to make it home safely, but the crowd started rolling out, so we pulled the plug and made a run for it. We stopped at the DCFC at the hotel in Charlottesville, for 12 minutes, to get a safety buffer.

1012.9 miles, 236.12 kWh, 4.29 miles/kWh

Up until the end of September, there were no Tesla fast chargers in Charlottesville. Tesla owners were using the three CHADEMO chargers, with their adapter. This month:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/plugshare.production.photos/photos/230471.jpg

EIGHT fast chargers!!

Tesla has banks of Superchargers every 120 miles up and down all the interstates around here now. That is worth more than any car, from any company.
 

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Level 3 are starting to pop up.

Several around Chattanooga (Cracker Barrel) along with several on the Interstate there (partially because Nissan has the plant in the state).

Georgia Power has several Level 3 around Georgia.

In Greenville SC (parents live there) Spinx (gas station chain) have started to rollout Level 3 too.

Tesla's charging network is better but all the gas stations & electric utility installs support J1772. Most restaurants with DC are also DCFC.

In the US there are 3 main standards. I would like to see Nissan move to J1772 which would start to make a network that could rival Tesla.
 

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I have never seen a CHAdeMO plug where there was not a CCS Combo plug. Do they exist? Other than having multiple plugs at a station, is there any other value to adopting a single standard? Anyone have any experience with the CHAdeMO to CCS adapters?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
"Anyone have any experience with the CHAdeMO to CCS adapters?"

I have never seen one. I don't think they exist. Tesla to CHADEMO adapters, but no adapters for CCS that I am aware of.

"Your story reinforces my unwillingness to spend time charging."

We do fast charging while eating usually, so it is hardly an inconvenience. My biggest problem with long trips is bathroom breaks. We stop every 45-60 minutes to use the restroom. Ironically, this is usually at a gas station, since they are the only thing near the road, that is open, in many small towns.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
"I would like to see Nissan move to J1772 which would start to make a network that could rival Tesla."

Nissan has always had J1772. That is the 120/240 volt plug. The CCS is the J1772 with DC fast charge pins grafted onto the bottom.
 

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I have never seen a CHAdeMO plug where there was not a CCS Combo plug. Do they exist?
There are a few DC fast chargers here in British Columbia that were installed a few years ago, before CCS was finalized, that are CHAdeMO-only. For example none of the fast chargers in Hope, Merritt or Kamloops have CCS plugs. I guess that's the price of the Province having been an early supporter of EVs.

All the newer chargers are dual standard, and I really hope they go back and retrofit the older ones with CCS.

This makes me wonder what's going to happen with the next generation of EVs that can use CCS chargers rated at 100 or 150kW. They're going to be stuck using the present generation of 50kW chargers for who knows how long.
 

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If/when a battery design comes out, that can handle three times the present C rate, there will be so many EVs on the road that there will be no problem finding new chargers to suit. Otherwise, you are only talking about, perhaps, charging at a bit higher rate for the first few minutes of an hour charge...not a game changer.
 

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I have never seen a CHAdeMO plug where there was not a CCS Combo plug. Do they exist? Other than having multiple plugs at a station, is there any other value to adopting a single standard? Anyone have any experience with the CHAdeMO to CCS adapters?
The Washington electric highway corridor fast charging is mostly CHAdeMO due to its age, and Nissan dealerships around Seattle tend to disable CCS even if their gear supports it.
 

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If/when a battery design comes out, that can handle three times the present C rate, there will be so many EVs on the road that there will be no problem finding new chargers to suit. Otherwise, you are only talking about, perhaps, charging at a bit higher rate for the first few minutes of an hour charge...not a game changer.
not quite true- after the initial "high value charge rate" the Tesla chargers tend to settle in for about 90,000-80,000 watts for the majority of the charging session - only dropping below 60,000 after the 80% mark - this makes a typical supercharger stop 40 minutes or less - vs. the 40,000 watt EVgo rates I see with my Bolt…

it's makes more of a difference than you would think.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
"not quite true- after the initial "high value charge rate" the Tesla chargers tend to settle in for about 90,000-80,000 watts for the majority of the charging session - only dropping below 60,000 after the 80% mark - this makes a typical supercharger stop 40 minutes or less - vs. the 40,000 watt EVgo rates I see with my Bolt…"

Is your Tesla a 60 kWh?

https://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/29.png
 

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P85D - and yeah you pull in around 20% by about the 25-30 min. mark you've approaching 80% battery and you've dropped to about 50-60,000 watts - after than it tapers from 80-90% to well below 30,000 watts - the point is with the Tesla Superchargers from zero to 80% you're getting nearly twice the actual watts vs. 50,000 watt DC Fast chargers…after 70% the rate becomes more nominal and more in the DCFast charger range.

zero to about 30% is 90,000 watts or more…
 

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I'd gladly pay Elon to experience that charge rate. He did say he would let any car brand charge, if they kicked in. GM won't, but I'd gladly pay personally. Maybe if the Model 3 launch continues to stall he will be interested in the extra cash from private owners of other brands.
 

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keep in mind Superchargers are capable of 135,000 watts - but so far the cars are limited to 120,000 watts (as we all know only if the battery is almost empty) - the Model 3 is rumored to go up to 525 amps which would equal a 210,000 theory max - we'll see

however the point of this post is that superchargers can do 135,000 watts, but it's split between an A & B stall - so if two Teslas are supercharging you get split load between the two cars - as one car tapers the other one will get higher wattage - but it can suck if the superchargers are all occupied - sometime you don't get more than 60,000 watts even if you're nearly empty…
 

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Tesla is going to install something like 24 EVSE's at my workplace, 18 Tesla destination and 6 general use (ClipperCreek). About $100k install gratis, and the EVSE's would have to be all just for employee use. I asked facilities why they would do this and he thought they truly just wanted to have EVSE's as ubiquitous as gas stations. Commendable.
 

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Tesla can keep their fast chargers. If I need to travel far, I'll take a gasmobile. Your story reinforces my unwillingness to spend time charging.
You and me both. I have no interest in making my trip even longer while I sit around waiting to get enough charge. And then there is the headache of showing up to charge and having to wait because the stalls are full...
 

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With the way Elon is burning through cash....he may need to let others in on his supercharging to pay the bills. What I find ironic is that the Department of Energy grant for 420+ million started the network. But all smoke and mirrors after that. Elon has no intention of allowing non tesla brands to hook up to his superchargers. That would further devalue the brand.
 

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With the way Elon is burning through cash....he may need to let others in on his supercharging to pay the bills. What I find ironic is that the Department of Energy grant for 420+ million started the network. But all smoke and mirrors after that. Elon has no intention of allowing non tesla brands to hook up to his superchargers. That would further devalue the brand.
Do you have some link to back up the claims? Elon has never waivered on his stance of opening the supercharger network to any EV manufacturer AFAIK. In fact there's a rumor that talks are ongoing with a major player. Also, the Tesla mission statement is to “accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass-market electric cars to market as soon as possible.”
Seems to me, that would trump your concerns of Tesla's value. To further discredit your anti-Tesla rant, he has opened up all patents to any responsible manufacturer.
"Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology."
https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you
Elon has publicly stated that he could give a rats ass what Wall Street says so it's not about the money. We're not talking about GM here.
 

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Tesla is following the Amazon route - just as long as you keep growing and have a good image you can burn cash for years. You'll note that Tesla is hyper sensitive about its image, and Musk keeps taking on bigger projects. Interestingly in his case most of the growth is happening with his portfolio, so far he just keeps starting new ventures (SpaceX, hyperloop, openai, etc). Tesla is publicly traded, but SpaceX isn't not sure about the others but maybe Tesla is the only company of his on the stock market.
 

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One thing that has happened to my driving habits since owning an EV is that I now recognize the value of getting out of the car and doing something besides anxiously jumping back in and deadheading it to wherever I'm headed. Perhaps its my advancing age but a long-distance trip is a lot more relaxing now that I stop at regular intervals to charge the battery.

Perhaps we can use the analogy of the first couple decades of filling stations in the US (check this link for a brief discussion https://aoghs.org/transportation/first-gas-pump-and-service-stations/) in relating to what Musk/Tesla is attempting with its Supercharger network. While their company has certainly not provided all the answers to the eventual need for convenient EV charging, they have certainly taken a massive step forward that is forcing other vendors to step up sooner rather than later.

Tesla's biggest contributions to date are:
A. the frequency with which a Tesla owner can arrive at a Supercharger location on any given trip, and
B. the number of charging stalls available once that owner arrives.

If Bolts, Leafs, i3's, Ioniqs and other entries in the EV market are going to really take off, there will simply have to be a quick-charging network in place to service the needs of those vehicles. Those installing charging stations will have to do one of the following:

A. Install more quick-charging stalls at each location, or
B. Install at more locations.
 
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