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BTW, there will be a vastly enlarged CCS network in the U.S. "soon", thanks to VW ("electrify America"), Ionity and EVgo.

For example:






https://electricrevs.com/2018/03/10/secret-highway-ultra-fast-dc-charging-map-revealed/

"... Electrify America’s pending coast to coast interstate system of nearly 300 150+ kW charging locations, each with between 4 to 10 charging pedestals supporting both CHAdeMO and CCS cables, targeted for completion by June, 2019 according to Electrify America’s website. "

Electrify America’s website : https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan
 

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Standard tactic here - change the argument...(skip to last paragraph)...So, *does* Elon owe any (non-Tesla) EV driver any access to his SC network? Of course not - but that wasn't the claim being pushed - that is the one that was trotted out when the original claim was shown to be the smelly mass of effluent that it actually is. Tesla could and can open the SC network at any time they choose. In fact, if Elon is the visionary people claim, and his interest is really in saving the planet, the "opened SC sites" could *ONLY* be those useful for inter-city travel along major routes, far from large population centres, where there are holes in the non-Tesla DCFC networks. Just opening (say) 50 sites would make a HUGE difference in travel between Chicago/ St Louis/ Indianapolis/ Nahville/ Atlanta and the East Coast as well as Salt Lake City/ Denver/ Albuquerque/ Phoenix and the West Coast.
Unfortunately, it is Bolt owners and, eventually other non-Tesla EV owners with 200+ miles of range, that are caught in the middle between a company that was not afraid to invest in the future via a Supercharging network and companies that are begrudgingly being dragged into the 21st century. It would be magnanimous of Musk/Tesla to open the charging stations to all EV owners, but their immediate concern is servicing a five-fold increase in Tesla owners over the next couple years.

In my hometown of Riverside CA there are two CCS chargers and one CHADeMo/SAE Combo charger at City Hall with free parking. Right across the street Tesla just opened 24 Supercharger stalls, also with free parking. That is the difference in order of magnitude between the Electrify America project and what is needed if EVs are to become practical for the average American.
 

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Unfortunately, it is Bolt owners and, eventually other non-Tesla EV owners with 200+ miles of range, that are caught in the middle between a company that was not afraid to invest in the future via a Supercharging network and companies that are begrudgingly being dragged into the 21st century. It would be magnanimous of Musk/Tesla to open the charging stations to all EV owners, but their immediate concern is servicing a five-fold increase in Tesla owners over the next couple years.

In my hometown of Riverside CA there are two CCS chargers and one CHADeMo/SAE Combo charger at City Hall with free parking. Right across the street Tesla just opened 24 Supercharger stalls, also with free parking. That is the difference in order of magnitude between the Electrify America project and what is needed if EVs are to become practical for the average American.
Again, not addressing the original position : Musk *said* he was willing to open the SC network (and all the rebuttals saying "yeah, right"). You are yet again moving to "GM needs to do something, beause the SC network is so fantastic". Again, not addressing the original position

"Straw Man".
 

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In all this blather about Tesla's network being open, I haven't seen even one indication that any other company has even attempted to work with Tesla to gain access to their charging network. So far it's just a lot of unfounded Tesla/Musk bashing.

Doesn't anyone have evidence that Tesla has either refused to work with or denied access to a competitor? Any evidence of egregious licensing terms? I'd love to have an SC port on my Bolt, but I'll bet it's not there because GM doesn't want to pay for the additional hardware and not because Tesla won't license the tech.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
I don't believe for a minute that any of the old OEMs want to see Tesla succeed, and they don't want to add to his acclaim by joining his network. I also think Elon would be quite happy to have the only, and hugely successful, EV company.
 

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In all this blather about Tesla's network being open, I haven't seen even one indication that any other company has even attempted to work with Tesla to gain access to their charging network. So far it's just a lot of unfounded Tesla/Musk bashing.

Doesn't anyone have evidence that Tesla has either refused to work with or denied access to a competitor? Any evidence of egregious licensing terms? I'd love to have an SC port on my Bolt, but I'll bet it's not there because GM doesn't want to pay for the additional hardware and not because Tesla won't license the tech.
Tesla doesn't have to work with a single manufacturer. The ports on all EVs (except for Teslas) are *standards*. Tesla can easily provide either a 'converter' (they already do for CHAdeMO -> Tesla, the opposite is a no-brainer) or simply install compatible plugs (and software upgrades) in some SuperCharger sites. This whole 'needs cooperation from manufacturers' is a smoke screen.

Nobody here (as far as I can tell) is bashing Tesla (or Musk) for not *doing it*, what is going in is:

(1) making fun of Teslarati who claim than Musk (Tesla) is dying to do so (because he said so) and the only thing stopping him are the greedy *other* manufacturers

(2) whipping on Musk for saying (pretending) he actually wants to, when he doesn't


It doesn't make sense financially for Tesla to open their SC network. Duh. We get it. We are making fun of people who think Musk is serious about opening the SC network. He (or Tesla) can do it any time they want and fairly easily - with no help or cooperation from any other Company. And we aren't saying he should do so for free - in fact we'd be HAPPY to pay (say) 3 times the rate charged Tesla drivers at SC sites.

But Tesla isn't going to do that - it makes no business sense whatsoever. So stop saying it isn't Musk's (or Tesla's) 'fault' that the SC is only for Tesla - yes it is. They could make non-Tesla drivers pay through the nose, but they don't. Because they don't want to. (And I get why they don't want to - it makes perfect sense).

But stop with the bullshite that Tesla loves teddybears and wants to open the SC network to save the planet from invasion from oil barons. The SC network would be open to all (for a price) if they wanted it to be. Quit drinking the KoolAid, and use your brains.
 

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Tesla doesn't have to work with a single manufacturer ... He (or Tesla) can do it any time they want and fairly easily - with no help or cooperation from any other Company ... The SC network would be open to all (for a price) if they wanted it to be. Quit drinking the KoolAid, and use your brains.
Actually, without cooperation from the other manufacturers as to standards for charge rate, a big problem with opening up the Tesla SC network to non-Teslas is the amount of charge a Bolt/Leaf/i3 can actually absorb per hour. The potential for Tesla SCs being tied up by slower-charging EVs from other manufacturers is a legitimate concern of Tesla and Tesla owners.

Sorry, SparkE, at some point the other manufacturers must accept the role they have in making EVs convenient for its owners.
 

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In all this blather about Tesla's network being open, I haven't seen even one indication that any other company has even attempted to work with Tesla to gain access to their charging network. So far it's just a lot of unfounded Tesla/Musk bashing.

Doesn't anyone have evidence that Tesla has either refused to work with or denied access to a competitor? Any evidence of egregious licensing terms? I'd love to have an SC port on my Bolt, but I'll bet it's not there because GM doesn't want to pay for the additional hardware and not because Tesla won't license the tech.
Don't hold your breath waiting for the evidence that he was lying. I've tried multiple times to no avail. They would rather blame Tesla for not providing them with the adapter to "prove" he really wants to share the network. They also expect Musk to personally plug in their car and get them a cup of coffee while they wait if he was serious about opening it up. This flailing that Tesla isn't serious about opening it up because he doesn't bend over backwards to accommodate them is embarrassing. Tesla has done all the heavy lifting. All you have to do is tuck your tail between your legs and approach Tesla and say, "you were right, the fast charging infrastructure is the secret sauce, I want in."
I'm not buying that Tesla wants to be proprietary and monopolistic either. It's been well documented the history of why Tesla chose their charging protocol over CCS and it goes against their goal of getting all manufacturers to join in the EV movement. Tesla wants the Bolt to succeed as they do with all the other EV's. That was whole point of sharing the superchargers and the patents. NoMo is correct though that it could be a delicate dance to avoid animosity at the stations but if all goes as planned, you will never have to wait on a plug. That is already the norm in the vast majority of stations.
 

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But stop with the bullshite that Tesla loves teddybears and wants to open the SC network to save the planet from invasion from oil barons. The SC network would be open to all (for a price) if they wanted it to be. Quit drinking the KoolAid, and use your brains.
Tesla, like any other publicly traded for-profit company, cares primarily about one thing: making $$$$$$ (well, Tesla still hasn't figured that part out yet). But supposedly some day they will be profitable if they don't go bankrupt first.

The "save the world/colonize Mars" stuff makes for "feel good" PR though.
 

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Don't hold your breath waiting for the evidence that he was lying. I've tried multiple times to no avail. They would rather blame Tesla for not providing them with the adapter to "prove" he really wants to share the network. They also expect Musk to personally plug in their car and get them a cup of coffee while they wait if he was serious about opening it up. This flailing that Tesla isn't serious about opening it up because he doesn't bend over backwards to accommodate them is embarrassing. Tesla has done all the heavy lifting. All you have to do is tuck your tail between your legs and approach Tesla and say, "you were right, the fast charging infrastructure is the secret sauce, I want in."
I'm not buying that Tesla wants to be proprietary and monopolistic either. It's been well documented the history of why Tesla chose their charging protocol over CCS and it goes against their goal of getting all manufacturers to join in the EV movement. Tesla wants the Bolt to succeed as they do with all the other EV's. That was whole point of sharing the superchargers and the patents. NoMo is correct though that it could be a delicate dance to avoid animosity at the stations but if all goes as planned, you will never have to wait on a plug. That is already the norm in the vast majority of stations.
Was he lying? Let's just look at his track record of making promises to judge the odds on if he was being truthful or not.

*quick Google search on 'Elon Musk lies'"

OK, the dude definitely was lying. Lol
 

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Ontario just cut the incentives for cars costing $75K or more... that will cause some decrease in sales for sure... especially for tesla.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-cuts-off-rebates-for-electric-vehicles-costing-more-than-75k-1.4571548


And before you think "Oh but Tesla Model 3s are lower in price", true. However, as per the government site Tesla is not part of the incentive list, at all.


http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/electric/electric-vehicle-rebate.shtml


There will sure be a decrease in sales for Tesla in Canada...
 

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In my hometown of Riverside CA there are two CCS chargers and one CHADeMo/SAE Combo charger at City Hall with free parking. Right across the street Tesla just opened 24 Supercharger stalls, also with free parking. That is the difference in order of magnitude between the Electrify America project and what is needed if EVs are to become practical for the average American.
This and the fact recharging time has to be significantly reduced. Today's Supercharge / DCFC still takes too long to fully recharge EV batteries.
 

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Ontario just cut the incentives for cars costing $75K or more..
That's clearly a lets-get-our-skirts-cleaned before the June 7th election. Opposition was otherwise prepared to have a field day about it.

Just a guess about model 3. The way Tesla has been pricing in Canada, a model 3 in the States with MSRP of $USD 62k would land around $CAD 75k in Canada. So that's pretty much a fully loaded model 3, shouldn't be a big problem for Tesla to duck under $CAD 75k to enable buyer to get $14k Ontario incentive. Assuming Tesla gets itself back on the eligible vehicles list. And assuming Tesla is willing to send model 3's to Canada given the current ~7%-8% unfavourable pricing versus currency translation hit.

Appears to be a rushed change during spring break week. MTO's website shows as of this a.m.:
As of March 9, 2018, EHVIP provides the following incentives for battery electric vehicles (BEVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) with a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) less than $75,000 $150K and plug-in electric vehicles (PHEVs) with an MSRP less than $75K. (I underlined what appears to be a "typo".)
 

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Was he lying? Let's just look at his track record of making promises to judge the odds on if he was being truthful or not.

*quick Google search on 'Elon Musk lies'"

OK, the dude definitely was lying. Lol
Anecdotal evidence and personal incredulity doesn't make it a fact. Post a link to counter the one's I've posted where it proves the supercharger network is not available to other EV manufacturers to opt in. That's all you have to do and I'll admit he's a liar.
 

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The potential for Tesla SCs being tied up by slower-charging EVs from other manufacturers is a legitimate concern of Tesla and Tesla owners.
Bingo! This is why most of us are saying that Tesla was never really serious about opening up their Super Charger network to non Tesla cars. Imagine the ire of a Tesla Model S owner that spent $100,000 on his new car, got the Tesla hat and jacket, pulls into the super modern Tesla branded charging facility, convinced he, or she is part of an exclusive and elite club, living in the fantastic, convenient future... only to see all the stalls clogged up with old Nissan Leafs and i3s, Chevy Bolts and *gasp* maybe even a compliance car or two! Oh that would suck!!

So, if GM were to buy in and partner with Tesla on the Super Charger Network as Elon has claimed he would allow, that would mean that all the Super Charger stations would have to be rebranded With the red Tesla T on half the sign and the blue and white GM chicklet on the other half. How would all the loyal, rabid Tesla fans feel about this? A little sold out perhaps?

Even if GM were magnanimous and didn't require rebranding even though they paid the money, how would the loyal Tesla fans and customers feel when they rolled up and saw Bolts, Volts and even Spark EVs plugged in? The riffraff would now be on equal terms in the club and have full access to the club house. It would very definitely diminish the allure of the Super Charger network as a big bonus to buying a Tesla.

Tesla has no intentions of sharing the network, nor should they. As a Bolt owner I do not feel entitled to it in any way. I think anybody can see how sharing it is just not workable, so most here are just pointing out that Elon sometimes says flowery words that really are just media babble and not to be taken seriously. That's all.
 

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Interesting read, agree here with Dav and redpoint, I don't see it working out if they get shared with us. And I don't mind a bit if they don't. Because gas cars are still a thing, and there are plenty of excellent ones for the 2% of driving that is long trips.
 

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Tesla has no intentions of sharing the network, nor should they. As a Bolt owner I do not feel entitled to it in any way. I think anybody can see how sharing it is just not workable, so most here are just pointing out that Elon sometimes says flowery words that really are just media babble and not to be taken seriously. That's all.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but I wonder about the logic. First, there just aren't enough non-Tesla EVs in the US to put a dent in the SC network. I'm a bit confused about how and when Tesla charges for using SC, but I know they do in some cases. And, they just raised there rates substantially. If they have a robust network, which it appears they are aiming for, why would they not want to be the next Exxon/Mobile/Shell/SunOCo of electrons? That appears to be what EvGo want's to do and Tesla surely has a head start with the number of charging stations and capital. My bet is that no one, even at Tesla, knows where this is going at this point in time. Interesting times.
 

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People seem to be forgetting that the offer to join the Supercharger network was made before it was built to any extent (certainly before cross country travel was possible).

Tesla has been cash strapped at many times during it's history and looking for partners. Now that the network is up and running with decent coverage, the question becomes "how much to join?".

If Tesla has invested $1B, a fair price to GM (or any other manufacturer) might be to match that $1B investment to be used to expand the Supercharger network.

The network is arguably Tesla's greatest asset. It's thin and overused in some areas as it is, and adding 10x+ the number of vehicles with access just thru Tesla sales will strain it further. A partner (or multiple partners) that will match Tesla's investment would likely be a win for both (and certainly for consumers), and I see this as a possibility. However, the longer there are multiple standards and the greater the investment in the CCS/CHAdeMO infrastructure, the less likely it is to occur. I think Hyundai/Kia or maybe BYD is a much more likely player than any US based manufacturer, and could allow them to take market share in a big way. I personally believe if Nissan would ditch CHAdeMO and work with Tesla on the 60kWh LEAF they could absolutely dominate the non-Tesla marketplace. Daimler at one point owned 10% of Tesla - maybe it's time to partner again?

Tesla has changed the game, and we are starting to see and hear of more manufacturers acknowledging them as a serious contender (JLR with the I-Pace rollout, Kia with the Kona billboard, Porsche and the Mission E, etc.). Daimler at one point owned 10% of Tesla - maybe it's time to partner again? Somebody with the $$ to throw into the game could get an instant advantage over the competition. This is not likely to be GM.

Allowing other vehicles to use the Supercharger network without requiring a substantial investment to expand it would be a very foolish move by Tesla.
 

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Lying requires intent to deceive. If Elon was lying, then his intention was always to mislead. What benefit does he get by saying the Supercharging network would be open to other manufacturers while having no intention to follow through? Perhaps there is some way Tesla benefits by deceiving, but I find it more likely that he was optimistic that sharing the charging network would work out, or that other manufacturers would adopt the Tesla charging standards.

It doesn't matter much if Elon had intent to deceive or not. The fact is that Tesla chargers are still not open to other brands. I don't see this as being very important in increasing EV adoption either. My hunch is that most potential EV buyers don't research the DCFC infrastructure before buying. Other considerations come first such as if they even like the car, can they afford it, can it complete their common trips in 1 charge, can they charge it at home... can it charge at Supercharger stations would be very low on the list of considerations for the typical buyer.

And as I said, I don't care if Tesla is dominant in the inconvenient "refueling" infrastructure that is DCFC. I suspect that many others (although not all) feel the same.



...per the government site Tesla is not part of the incentive list, at all.
How did Tesla not make the incentive list? Was it excluded specifically, or is there some criteria used to determine if a vehicle makes the subsidy list?
 

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The dealerships gave me a hard time charging, so I went to IKEA, in the end IKEA chargers are a great marketing campaign. I ended up spending about 90 dollars on materials to build a workbench. Screw the Chevy dealerships. Tesla would be stupid not to open up its charging network pure economics here and marketing. I originally wanted a Tesla just cant get one. do you guys really think your going to drive your Chevy bolt forever ? I plan on upgrading this was just the beginning Porsche e mission sounds nice it was always my favorite. I have no brand loyalty except to myself ;) Just my humble 2 cents
 
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