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In electric car sales that makes sense to me. BMW's offerings aren't all that good in the EV arena. I love the i3 a lot but the car isn't priced right at all. But BMW as a whole still sold over 2.5M cars last year.
....the article I linked made no mention of BMW electric vehicles. That being said, I do agree with your sentiments about BMW's BEVs & PHEVs. They seem to have more impressive vehicles headed to market.
 

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My first experience with this was helping a friend who hit hard economic times and needed to downgrade from a $50,000 SUV to a $20,000 sedan. He still owed over $40,000 on the SUV, and when he went to trade it in, he was quoted something around half of the original price. He couldn't believe it because the SUV was only about a year and a half old. The sales rep explained that, over the SUV's life, it had received promotional discounts of over $12,000 (my friend had passed on the $5,000 at the time in lieu of 0% APR), and regardless of whether someone actually cashed in on those discounts, the trade in value assumed that they had. So driving off the lot brand new (per trade in value), the SUV was worth less than $38,000. The year and a half of driving took another third or so off of that. So despite making principal only payments for the last year and a half, he was still underwater by something like 15 grand.
Every bit of that story sounds like poor financial management. Why would he try to trade in a vehicle if he's undergoing financial difficulty? That's the least value one can get for a vehicle. Why would one seek to purchase from a dealership to get a more affordable car when that is the most expensive place to purchase one?
 

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Every bit of that story sounds like poor financial management. Why would he try to trade in a vehicle if he's undergoing financial difficulty? That's the least value one can get for a vehicle. Why would one seek to purchase from a dealership to get a more affordable car when that is the most expensive place to purchase one?
I agree (mostly), but that wasn't the point of the story. Part of the issue is (in California, anyway), transferring title when you still owe money on a car is very difficult outside of a dealership. If you can't afford the payments, insurance, and gas, you can't afford the payment, insurance, and gas. You either let the car get repossessed and take a hit to your credit, or you sell to the only place that's willing to buy you out of your loan.
 

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On the topic of the Bolt MSRP, sticker price, VS sale price, GM has long used incentives to fine tune transaction price, why?
  • They can adjust the vehicle price every Month/ week including what is built and in dealer inventory or transit.
  • They avoid issues like this Tesla’s Surprise $6,410 Price Cut Sparks a Rant From One Devotee
  • Or this Elon Musk tweets the Model S will be priced at $69,420, because he’s a child – TechCrunch
  • If GM / Tesla had won the request to extend the Federal tax credit, no price adjustment necessary
  • If the preference of those in US political power becomes more EV favorable next month, change the incentive
  • If the competition landscape changes, change the incentive
  • You can fine tune by ZIP code! IE CARB states, non CARB states, sell the vehicles where they generate the most value for the company
  • Redesign sales overlap, IE new Malibu / classic Malibu, adjust the incentive (New Bolt, old Bolt🤞)
I am not saying that it is a perfect system but from a business standpoint I sure see why they do it.

Tesla sort of does the same thing by adding / subtracting incentives like free Supercharging for life/ two years, or buy now, at reduced rate, enjoy sometime in the future Full Self Driving.

I actually don't ever recall GM reducing a MSRP after SORP for a vehicle. I do recall them introducing a lower feature version, like adding a LS trim level and holding the price on LT, or what I believe they plan for next year, making the single LT trim level LT1 and LT2, but that is the magnitude of price adjustment I would expect for a current production vehicle.
 

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I actually don't ever recall GM reducing a MSRP after SORP for a vehicle. I do recall them introducing a lower feature version, like adding a LS trim level and holding the price on LT, or what I believe they plan for next year, making the single LT trim level LT1 and LT2, but that is the magnitude of price adjustment I would expect for a current production vehicle.
They did with the Volt, I think it was a 5,000 price cut from one year to the next with MORE features added. This was within the 1st generation. When they went to the second generation it got another price cut (not as big) and was a huge improvement in range and features. Here is the break down:

2011 $41,000
2012 $40,000
2013 $40,000
2014 $35,000
2015 $35,000
2016 $34,000
2017 $34,000
2018 $34,100
2019 $33,520

Later,

Keith
 

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They did with the Volt, I think it was a 5,000 price cut from one year to the next with MORE features added. This was within the 1st generation. When they went to the second generation it got another price cut (not as big) and was a huge improvement in range and features. Here is the break down:

2011 $41,000
2012 $40,000
2013 $40,000
2014 $35,000
2015 $35,000
2016 $34,000
2017 $34,000
2018 $34,100
2019 $33,520

Later,

Keith
I seem to recall the initial drop being steeper. Or maybe I'm simply remembering the fact that I paid about $38,000 for my 2012.
 

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The whole point of MSRP is to allow the stealership to "make you a deal". Manufacturer incentives exist as a way to allow stealerships to take people for more money, but discount the price if they cannot convince a person to be taken. It's a stupid waste of everyone's time.
Agreed, didn't Saturn introduce no haggle pricing?
 

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The whole point of MSRP is to allow the stealership to "make you a deal". Manufacturer incentives exist as a way to allow stealerships to take people for more money, but discount the price if they cannot convince a person to be taken. It's a stupid waste of everyone's time.
You are obviously entitled to your opinion, any good tool can be used the wrong way and abused, do you prefer Elon's yo-yo pricing? Or would you prefer the Saturn pricing model?

What would your business model recommend the industry move towards?

Related, it really upsets me when the airport franchised McDonalds dealership doesn't "participate" in the dollar value pricing promotion, but I have a choice, Mcd's or the granola bar I packed in my carry-on , their business model says they can't afford the staff and rent if they sell me the convenience of purchasing what I want at that location, I don't conclude that they are "suckering me in and stealing my money"😉
 

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You are obviously entitled to your opinion, any good tool can be used the wrong way and abused, do you prefer Elon's yo-yo pricing? Or would you prefer the Saturn pricing model?

What would your business model recommend the industry move towards?

Related, it really upsets me when the airport franchised McDonalds dealership doesn't "participate" in the dollar value pricing promotion, but I have a choice, Mcd's or the granola bar I packed in my carry-on , their business model says they can't afford the staff and rent if they sell me the convenience of purchasing what I want at that location, I don't conclude that they are "suckering me in and stealing my money"😉
The dealership model is a legacy institution and wouldn't exist if the industry started today. I prefer real-time bottom line pricing, just like everything else. I'm just glad I don't have to haggle the price of every can of beans, cut of steak, toilet paper... the automotive industry and mattress industries are among the few remaining "haggle" (hassle) industries.

Think of it this way, what would be the vehicle price if we could purchase vehicles for the price dealerships pay? No cut going to build and maintain those fancy showrooms, no paying secretaries to keep fresh coffee available, no paying salesman salaries, no paying pit boss salaries... why do we want to pay salaries to people who pay good cop / bad cop anyhow? "I'll go ask my boss, but he's not going to like this".

It doesn't make sense for consumers to get upset about price fluctuation because that happens with absolutely everything. Did people who bought Tesla's early really think they were getting the best deal, and that later on when the technology is older and demand diminishes the prices would go up? I like the "lock in price" scam they have going on full self drive, as if somehow the price will go up in the future. Who pays top dollar for something that doesn't even exist yet?

I don't follow the tangent to airport vendor pricing being high. Their lease costs are higher, and the consumer always pays the cost of doing business (including corporate tax). I too bring my own food (or don't eat) to avoid marked up pricing. At least the prices are as stated. Would hate to haggle the price as everyone behind me trying to catch a flight lose their cool.
 

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....the article I linked made no mention of BMW electric vehicles. That being said, I do agree with your sentiments about BMW's BEVs & PHEVs. They seem to have more impressive vehicles headed to market.
Except the headline, that seemed to imply the subject matter. I think we are talking about different articles. I was referring to your post where you posted an article about Tesla and BMW competition. BMW is mentioned 26 times, and if you get past the headline you have this:

"The automaker with the most to lose is BMW. As Carscoops recently pointed out, Tesla sold more Model 3s in the US in 2019 than BMW sold sedans from its 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8 Series combined. "

"A recent Bloomberg article contains even more worrying news for Beemer fans. Based on a survey of 5,000 Model 3 buyers, Bloomberg concluded that BMW is more vulnerable to competition from Tesla than any other automaker: “No one has been hurt more by Tesla’s success than BMW.” "

"The BMW 3 Series was second only to the Toyota Prius on the list of trade-ins. "

and it goes on ....
 

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Discussion Starter #74
They did with the Volt, I think it was a 5,000 price cut from one year to the next with MORE features added.

2011 $41,000
2012 $40,000
2013 $40,000
2014 $35,000
2015 $35,000
2016 $34,000
2017 $34,000
2018 $34,100
2019 $33,520
This seems like roughly the trajectory they'll need to be on with the Bolt EV as more capable models enter the market at the same price point. For instance, where does the Bolt EUV fit into the lineup with the smaller Bolt at $37k? It's got to be closer to $45-50k if the Bolt EV remains the same, which is then wildly uncompetitive with something like the ID.4 or Nissan Ariya and their $7,500 credit. The Bolt moving closer to $30k and the Bolt EUV near $40k feels about right, for now.

As @wonderbolt mentioned, the tax credit situation is also more up in the air than many of us have mentioned, at least until next month. If nothing changes politically, I can see it being largely ignored and staying exactly as is, unless EVs become a policy hot potato and the debate takes on some form of "Made in America" angle. If there's a change, EVs become a central focus of policy and it does seem likely the whole system will be rethought.
 

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EVs are on nobody's political radar. The news hasn't told us to make that our top priorities yet.
Good point!

Now what if 'Someone' said something negative about EV's.:mad:

Good lord,,,,,, then what would EV life be like? :confused:
 

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This seems like roughly the trajectory they'll need to be on with the Bolt EV as more capable models enter the market at the same price point. For instance, where does the Bolt EUV fit into the lineup with the smaller Bolt at $37k? It's got to be closer to $45-50k if the Bolt EV remains the same, which is then wildly uncompetitive with something like the ID.4 or Nissan Ariya and their $7,500 credit. The Bolt moving closer to $30k and the Bolt EUV near $40k feels about right, for now.

As @wonderbolt mentioned, the tax credit situation is also more up in the air than many of us have mentioned, at least until next month. If nothing changes politically, I can see it being largely ignored and staying exactly as is, unless EVs become a policy hot potato and the debate takes on some form of "Made in America" angle. If there's a change, EVs become a central focus of policy and it does seem likely the whole system will be rethought.
The most successful EV company in the world is made in America, and the CEO of that company is prone to wild rants on twitter... I see a match made in Heaven if the current POTUS and Elon get together. The only problem with that is I don't think Elon is in favor of the tax credit. It benefits his competitors more than it benefits him. As much as Elon talks about promoting ALL renewable energy and EV's, if he could crush all of his competition and have everyone driving Tesla's he would do it in a heartbeat.

Keith
 

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Good point!

Now what if 'Someone' said something negative about EV's.:mad:

Good lord,,,,,, then what would EV life be like? :confused:
If a certain someone said the earth is round the entire mainstream media would become flat earthers. So, if we want EV's to become a big thing we NEED to get the POTUS to denounce them.

Keith
 

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....So, if we want EV's to become a big [ed.BAD] thing we NEED to get the POTUS to denounce them.

Keith
Please Keith, don't say that....

Not everyone studies all the Medias' opinions. some have a life...

Do you really want to rally the Deplorables?
 

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The most successful EV company in the world is made in America, and the CEO of that company is prone to wild rants on twitter... I see a match made in Heaven if the current POTUS and Elon get together. The only problem with that is I don't think Elon is in favor of the tax credit. It benefits his competitors more than it benefits him. As much as Elon talks about promoting ALL renewable energy and EV's, if he could crush all of his competition and have everyone driving Tesla's he would do it in a heartbeat.

Keith
I don't know that that is true. Both GM and Tesla lobbied the government to extend the Federal EV Tax Credit, but that is because they are the two companies hurt the worst by it. Sure, Ford is about to really start cashing in on it, but outside of that, every company that stands to gain from the EV Tax Credit at this point is a foreign company. Regardless of your thoughts on protectionism, it seems very dumb to have a U.S. EV Tax Credit that funds foreign companies at the cost of domestic companies.
 
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