[madmike]

Enjoy Oro Valley and Green Valley, I'm a proud Wildcat, earning my PhD from the U of A in 1996.

As far as highway range, I did a pretty painful drive in the middle of the night last winter and my guessometer was reading about 130 miles or so at 70-80%....and then by blind spot indicator starting going off at random times. It made me realize the wisdom of the placement of EA stations.

 

[NortonCommando]

I think this is an important topic for EV owners to understand: Regenerative braking in and of itself does not increase range. ... The Bolt EVs that have been hypermiled for more than 400 miles on a single battery charge used almost no regenerative braking over the course of those drives, and it wouldn't matter whether they were in D or L....

Exactly!
And if the conditions require some regen braking, what does it matter if it's controlled via the Brake Pedal in D or letting off the Go Pedal in L?
As long as the accel and decel forces are the same, regardless of the driving style, the efficiency/range should be the same.

My point is GM EV's give you the choice of driving styles and don't force you to adopt to 1 pedal style if you don't want to.
Blended Brakes are a high tech feature the Tesla's don't have.

 

[Dyefrog]

Exactly!
And if the conditions require some regen braking, what does it matter if it's controlled via the Brake Pedal in D or letting off the Go Pedal in L?
As long as the accel and decel forces are the same, regardless of the driving style, the efficiency/range should be the same.

My point is GM EV's give you the choice of driving styles and don't force you to adopt to 1 pedal style if you don't want to.
Blended Brakes are a high tech feature the Tesla's don't have.

One pedal driving in a Tesla is an option. You can turn it off if you want. There are two levels of regen outside of one pedal. The stronger of the two will slow you down to about 3 miles an hour without one pedal on. So you have 3 levels of coasting/regen to choose from. You also have TACC which is zero pedal driving.
But regardless, I agree coasting to a gravity stop is the most efficient.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Exactly!
And if the conditions require some regen braking, what does it matter if it's controlled via the Brake Pedal in D or letting off the Go Pedal in L?
As long as the accel and decel forces are the same, regardless of the driving style, the efficiency/range should be the same.

My point is GM EV's give you the choice of driving styles and don't force you to adopt to 1 pedal style if you don't want to.
Blended Brakes are a high tech feature the Tesla's don't have.

I would say the one way GM could improve the system is by adding a "Performance" mode that eliminates standard regen altogether. This is what Porsche does with the Taycan, and ironically, though it's better for performance driving, it can also be better for efficiency.

 

[Voldar]

Voldar, that sounds awfully high for routine maintenance, even for a Tesla!!

Rich

Well, the above are the prices that you should expect once the warranty is done. The annual maintenance here in Canada is about 1k CA$ (after warranty), that’s about 700 US$, for a Model S (not many Model 3 out of warranty yet). And if you start to have problems... well.. the cost is going up. Just for fun, ask a Tesla shop how much will cost replacing the breaks for a Tesla outside the warranty. Or if you have a problem with the screen or lets say a burned out led headlight, what would be the cost ? I am not saying this will happen every year and to everyone but... I think they should be taken in consideration.

 

[Voldar]

I just received a mailer from GM for my 2020 Bolt that i purchased in January. It recommended a tire rotation.
No other suggestions were offered.
A friend purchased a Used Model S not long ago directly from Tesla. He had issues which he narrowed to the
12 volt battery. He charged it, but, couldn't get codes to go away. Car wouldn't move. Tesla finally picked it up
with a flat bed. They have had it for over a week. He is very unhappy with them. No communication.
Calls service center, voicemail full. Sends texts, if a reply is gotten, he believes it is a generated response.
I waited in line on day one for the :Model 3 reservation and ordered two of them. Got more and more
disillusioned with them and finally canceled both. Didn't even bother trying to sell reservations. Probably
should have.

Your friend should have watched this before buying a used Tesla.

 

[shrox]

I think this is an important topic for EV owners to understand: Regenerative braking in and of itself does not increase range. Regenerative braking only increases range when it replaces deceleration from friction braking. Now, that part might be filed under, "No duh," but it's important to note that the most efficient driving for an EV is steady speed driving.

Regenerative braking is not 100% efficient (that would defy the laws of physics), so you're never getting back as much as you put in. The Bolt EVs that have been hypermiled for more than 400 miles on a single battery charge used almost no regenerative braking over the course of those drives, and it wouldn't matter whether they were in D or L.

This translates into the real-world as well, where driving style dictates range and efficiency far more than regenerative braking mode. In fact, for the most efficient drivers on the most efficient driving cycles, the most efficient regenerative braking mode would be zero regeneration (i.e., coasting to stops).

I forgot that D does have regenerate braking.

 

[Fivedoor]

I would say the one way GM could improve the system is by adding a "Performance" mode that eliminates standard regen altogether. This is what Porsche does with the Taycan, and ironically, though it's better for performance driving, it can also be better for efficiency.

I would prefer a "coast" paddle on the passenger side of the steering wheel to compliment the regen paddle on the drivers side of the steering wheel instead of volume buttons... that way I could use the coast button instead of putting the car in N if I were in a hypermiling situation... N is OK for short distances since the oil is gravity fed from the top to the bottom of the trans-axle, so even when the pump is off you have oil flow... but you don't know when that oil that was pumped to the top runs out, so you can't coast in N for long distances.

Or they could just leave the darn oil pump running in N so you could coast with impunity that way

If they were to add a mode or two, I would prefer an "eco" mode that limited power to the motor to 25 KW unless you go above 90% accelerator pedal position and an "eco +" mode that limited it to 20 KW, including power use when you hit the "resume" button on the cruise control. That way you would still have full power available in an emergency by going to 100% accelerator pedal position, but most of the time you would be limited to 25 KW or 20 KW.... I would prefer this to a speed based limit when in "eco mode" and "eco + mode" like other cars have where it limits your top speed.

Keith

 

[NortonCommando]

One pedal driving in a Tesla is an option. You can turn it off if you want. ...

But then, as always with a Tesla, using the Brake Pedal to adjust your speed is 100% Friction Brakes.

Which is kind of Lo Tech, imho....

 

[NewsCoulomb]

I would prefer a "coast" paddle on the passenger side of the steering wheel to compliment the regen paddle on the drivers side of the steering wheel instead of volume buttons... that way I could use the coast button instead of putting the car in N if I were in a hypermiling situation... N is OK for short distances since the oil is gravity fed from the top to the bottom of the trans-axle, so even when the pump is off you have oil flow... but you don't know when that oil that was pumped to the top runs out, so you can't coast in N for long distances.

Or they could just leave the darn oil pump running in N so you could coast with impunity that way

If they were to add a mode or two, I would prefer an "eco" mode that limited power to the motor to 25 KW unless you go above 90% accelerator pedal position and an "eco +" mode that limited it to 20 KW, including power use when you hit the "resume" button on the cruise control. That way you would still have full power available in an emergency by going to 100% accelerator pedal position, but most of the time you would be limited to 25 KW or 20 KW.... I would prefer this to a speed based limit when in "eco mode" and "eco + mode" like other cars have where it limits your top speed.

Keith

I actually thought, since the Regen on Demand paddle is only an I/O, why not have it be two-way? Pull back for max regen. Push forward for zero regen. The neutral position defaults to whatever your base setting is (D or L).

 

[Dyefrog]

But then, as always with a Tesla, using the Brake Pedal to adjust your speed is 100% Friction Brakes.

Which is kind of Lo Tech, imho....

I believe that is true other than the Roadster which IIRC had blended brakes. However, in reality, the car functions as if they were blended brakes as regen is not over ridden when the brakes are applied. As soon as you lift your foot off the accelerator, assuming:

1. The temperature of the battery allows
2. The capacity of the battery allows
3. Creep mode is set to off

regen is activated. Depending on how hard the brake is applied effects the amount of regen recovered. The reduction in regen is more a nature of the reduced kinetic energy from the slower speed.
Regardless, just like a Bolt, Tesla's driven as noted above rarely use mechanical brakes and the difference in energy recovered and brake pad usage is probably negligible for similar weight and driving styles. There are Tesla's on original pads at 260,000 miles.

 

[Thavian48812]

Financially, many will say that keeping is a bad move. I got one of the first Bolts delivered in Tucson, and there were no incentives available with the exception of the $7,500 tax credit. As I get closer to my turn-in or buy for $25,000 date, I'll keep looking for a 2020 (or 2021) for $30K before tax, allowing me to get a new Bolt for a $5,000 difference.

I just bought a loaded 2020 Bolt Premier up in the Seattle area a month ago for exactly $30k plus tax. It’s doable with a bit of negotiating!

 

[NewsCoulomb]

I believe that is true other than the Roadster which IIRC had blended brakes. However, in reality, the car functions as if they were blended brakes as regen is not over ridden when the brakes are applied. As soon as you lift your foot off the accelerator, assuming:

1. The temperature of the battery allows
2. The capacity of the battery allows
3. Creep mode is set to off

regen is activated. Depending on how hard the brake is applied effects the amount of regen recovered. The reduction in regen is more a nature of the reduced kinetic energy from the slower speed.
Regardless, just like a Bolt, Tesla's driven as noted above rarely use mechanical brakes and the difference in energy recovered and brake pad usage is probably negligible for similar weight and driving styles. There are Tesla's on original pads at 260,000 miles.

The difference is more than just academic. You can't simply say that pressing the brake pedal doesn't "override" regenerative braking so it's the same as blended brakes in reality. That's simply not true. Tesla's system reduces brake pad wear, but true blended braking systems can eliminate brake pad wear. Any braking force applied by the friction brakes reduces the amount of energy absorbed by the regenerative braking system. It's the same issue with Nissan's e-Pedal (and why I dislike it), which is that friction brakes are used to compensate for regenerative braking limits.

The key benefit of regenerative braking, in my opinion, is eliminating brake wear, not just reducing it. The Porsche Taycan is, in my opinion, possibly the best setup at this point. Because of zero regen on the accelerator and true blended braking, you can press the brake pedal, and you won't engage the friction brakes at all until all 265 kW of regenerative braking force has been applied. So, in that implementation, the friction brakes truly supplement the regenerative braking.

 

[Packard V8]

Many years ago, the last ride with a burst-and-coast ICE hypermiler driver was such agony for me and the drivers around him, I swore never again. I guess the current generation of old ICE hypermilers will have to die off before this fascination with BEV coasting is no longer discussed.

Bottom line, the 1-pedal is not an ON/OFF switch. Modulation of the pedal in L or D will produce the same efficiency result as "gravity coasting to a stop."

As to the Taycan's choices of software/hardware, there are strong differences of opinion as to how well it works in the real world. Several magazine reviewers I've read were not impressed and after an overnight test drive, one Porsche-owing friend has decided to wait for v.2.

jack vines

 

[stangbat]

I have a Bolt and I have a Model 3. I use the brakes the same amount in both cars, which is basically never. Argue all you want about the differences, but in real world driving they work the same for me.

I have the Model 3 set to use regen and Hold. With this setup it works just like the Bolt in L Mode.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Many years ago, the last ride with a burst-and-coast ICE hypermiler driver was such agony for me and the drivers around him, I swore never again. I guess the current generation of old ICE hypermilers will have to die off before this fascination with BEV coasting is no longer discussed.

Bottom line, the 1-pedal is not an ON/OFF switch. Modulation of the pedal in L or D will produce the same efficiency result as "gravity coasting to a stop."

As to the Taycan's choices of software/hardware, there are strong differences of opinion as to how well it works in the real world. Several magazine reviewers I've read were not impressed and after an overnight test drive, one Porsche-owing friend has decided to wait for v.2.

jack vines

Brakes are a lot like seats, and everyone seems to have an opinion. For many traditional auto journalists, I think blended braking itself is a bit difficult to process, with the transition from pure regen to mixed braking to primarily friction being completely alien to most. We heard the same criticisms of the Bolt EV's brakes despite the Bolt EV's regenerative braking system being considered one of the best in the industry.

 

[NortonCommando]

... Argue all you want about the differences, but in real world driving they work the same for me.

I have the Model 3 set to use regen and Hold. With this setup it works just like the Bolt in L Mode.

The difference is you must drive a Model 3 '1 Pedal' style. No choice if you want regen braking.

Some love 1 Pedal driving.
Some don't want to adopt to this new way of driving a car.

It is like driving with a Dead Man pedal.
You must keep your right foot planted and in control the whole time.
Take your foot off that dang pedal to scooch in the seat, adjust the twins, whatever, and you get Full Regen and Brake lights come on.

 

[Digi]

I forgot that D does have regenerate braking.

Yes but it is not as powerful as driving in L mode.

 

[stangbat]

The difference is you must drive a Model 3 '1 Pedal' style. No choice if you want regen braking.

Between the two cars, I'm more annoyed by the fact that I have to double tap the shifter down every time in the Bolt to enable L mode than I am about how Tesla implemented regen and one pedal driving. I understand Chevy may have fixed this in the upcoming Bolt and EUV, hopefully they did. I don't mention this to criticize Chevy and praise Tesla, I mention it to point out that what bothers one person is no big deal to another. Obviously the way Tesla implemented regen is a big deal to you, it isn't to me. I'm just giving another perspective to point out that with how I drive both cars, they behave exactly the same, and I like it.

 

[Dyefrog]

The difference is you must drive a Model 3 '1 Pedal' style. No choice if you want regen braking.

Some love 1 Pedal driving.
Some don't want to adopt to this new way of driving a car.

It is like driving with a Dead Man pedal.
You must keep your right foot planted and in control the whole time.
Take your foot off that dang pedal to scooch in the seat, adjust the twins, whatever, and you get Full Regen and Brake lights come on.

I think you are mistaken. One pedal driving on a Tesla, post Roadster, was an OTA upgrade. Before that, with regen set to the stronger of the two settings, it would not come to a full stop if on a slight downhill. So occasionally, in that scenario, the last 3 mph would get dissipated via mechanical brakes. Extremely minor engagement but the argument on this forum was taking your foot off the accelerator to apply braking in some situations was not as convenient as one pedal driving.
After the OTA updated to incorporate one pedal driving, regenerative braking remained unchanged with 2 levels of regen. Standard being more powerful than low. What the upgrade modified was the stopping mode. Previously, you had "creep" which behaved like an automatic transmission on an ICEV that required you to keep you foot on the brake to remain stopped, and "roll" which was the ability to coast without any braking or acceleration inputs.
The addition of "hold" incorporated the ability to: "Maximizes range by extending regenerative braking to lower speeds and automatically blends in brakes to hold the vehicle at a stop"
So if you select either "creep" or "hold" you can still drive without one pedal style like before.
Maybe I'm not understanding your point.