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... In normal circumstances, you don't get any braking force on the rear wheels until regen has been tapped out. (I don't know that this is true, but I'll accept it as true for the sake of argument). What happens when you hit some ice and traction control cuts in? ...
Coming down Pikes Peak riding the brake pedal most of the way, in D, like a dumb tourist, in my Volt, when I stopped at the Park Ranger Safety station where they read your brake disc temps, the front disc was 75°F on a 65° day. The backs where at ambient. That was the fastest charge the Volt battery ever got!

As for braking, of any sort, on gravel or raining streets, these cars have an amazing Stability Control System. I'm pretty sure it applies individual brakes to save your bacon.
At least that has been my experience while flogging the 2 GM EV's that I have owned.
 

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...I ran a test where I drove the Bolt down a long steep hill in "L", "D" and "N" modes... So there's no doubt in my mind that "D" mode uses regen alone for mild to moderate braking. Where exactly it kicks in I couldn't tell you, but it's beyond the kinds of braking forces that I use in normal driving, so for me at least it's a moot point.
Let's assume you are correct. In normal circumstances, you don't get any braking force on the rear wheels until regen has been tapped out. (I don't know that this is true, but I'll accept it as true for the sake of argument). What happens when you hit some ice and traction control cuts in? Is that still true? I don't think it is, but I cannot prove it. Unless you can prove that it is not, I will continue to drive in D during the winter.
I can't make any claims about how traction control works with regen. It's pretty much irrelevant in terms of efficiency because it should happen very rarely. In terms of handling it might make a difference, although I always drive in "L" mode and haven't had an issue in slippery conditions. But I drive very gingerly when the car could slip and I've never had traction control activate under those conditions. The only time I've had something like that happen is during a panic stop when ABS kicked in.
 

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I finally took out my Model 3 to double check all the claims here. I can report that what's been discussed is right. To summarize:

In a Model 3 you have the option of "Low" and "Standard" regen. Low feels and acts like the Bolt does in "D" mode. Standard feels and acts like the Bolt does in "L" mode.

When the brakes are used in the Model 3 you do not get any additional regen up to a certain threshold, it simply applies the brakes. So yes, this means you don't get any additional regen applied before the brakes are applied as with the Bolt (what is being called blended brakes).
So what I'm hearing is that there's no difference for drivers who prefer to drive in the manner of the Bolt's "L" mode, but the Model 3 would be wasting some energy for those who prefer to drive in the manner of the Bolt's "D" mode...?
 

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So what I'm hearing is that there's no difference for drivers who prefer to drive in the manner of the Bolt's "L" mode, but the Model 3 would be wasting some energy for those who prefer to drive in the manner of the Bolt's "D" mode...?
Ding ding ding, stop all calls, we have a winner.
 

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So what I'm hearing is that there's no difference for drivers who prefer to drive in the manner of the Bolt's "L" mode, but the Model 3 would be wasting some energy for those who prefer to drive in the manner of the Bolt's "D" mode...?
Even that is not strictly true. The Bolt EV in L will max out regen at ~60 kW if all you do is lift off the accelerator. However, applying the Regen on Demand paddle or lightly pressing the brake pedal will unlock an additional 10 kW of regenerative braking power before the friction brakes are engaged. The reason to use the RoD paddle is, of course, so you max out regen without hitting the "braking" point. Forgive... I can't pass up a good pun.

What I haven't been able to confirm is whether the brake pedal maxes out at 65 kW in D (the max for the RoD) or provides the full 70 kW before applying friction brakes.
 

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What I haven't been able to confirm is whether the brake pedal maxes out at 65 kW in D (the max for the RoD) or provides the full 70 kW before applying friction brakes.
I rarely have to decelerate beyond what paddle-less regen in "L" will give me, so even if I was using the brakes in "D" mode it would mostly be a moot point for me.
 

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I rarely have to decelerate beyond what paddle-less regen in "L" will give me, so even if I was using the brakes in "D" mode it would mostly be a moot point for me.
Yes, outside of emergency braking, I'm pretty much in the same boat. Basically, the takeaway is that under gentle brake pedal use, Bolt EV owners likely to not engage the friction brakes at all.
 

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So what I'm hearing is that there's no difference for drivers who prefer to drive in the manner of the Bolt's "L" mode, but the Model 3 would be wasting some energy for those who prefer to drive in the manner of the Bolt's "D" mode...?
Yes, but the Model 3's Low regen mode is more aggressive than the Bolt's D mode. So you'll waste less energy than you think as Model 3 slows down more in Low regen mode than the Bolt does in D mode. You won't use the brakes as much as you'd think or as much as is being speculated here.

All I can say is drive both cars and see for yourself. I think you'll agree that all this handwringing about the difference is overblown.
 

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The new location is Smithtown Long Island at the intersection of rt 347 and rt 25. It is going to be a combination location as a Service/Delivery Center and new Store location. They are taking the business license from Mt. Kisco location in order to be able to use the new location as a delivery center. All this has been confirmed by Tesla personell at the only present Long Island Tesla Service Center/Delivery Center in Manhassett Long Island. It is a huge location, at one point they had over 400 Tesla's park there for delivery (I have pictures of that). I drive past it frequently since it's so close to my house... the Tesla sign is up, the building painted, the scaffolding is gone, the parking lot is paved, etc.. it is scheduled for staffing this week and opening in mid August.
So they're transitioning Mt Kisco to Long Island? That's a huge "F** YOU" to upstate. Mt Kisco was the only delivery option west of NYC in February (and that's a crappy option for upstaters - Getting shafted over to Mt Kisco is why I own a Bolt), and if they're moving its license to Long Island, that leaves Brooklyn as the westernmost Tesla delivery center in the state. I'm even more glad I didn't give in to their shenanigans in February if that's what they think of upstate customers.

As for the "strategy game," frankly, there isn't one. It's simply knowledge. I don't plan my trips anymore. I'm not special.
Wrong. You live in California, therefore - you are special.

Take a look at New York State. There are a grand total of 6 CCS stations with 50 kW capability or more west of Albany all the way to the Ohio border.
Four of them are EA on I-90. The other two are Chargepoint in Jamestown and the Southern Tier Welcome Center on northbound I-81 at the PA border.

Of the four EA stations on I-90, THREE of them have been down for over a week. It's getting close to two weeks now. You can't miss even one of them without doing an overnight in a hotel with destination L2, and there are THREE of them in a row that are down. The end result is that you have to plan a trip that includes a massive detour south to I-80 in PA if you want to cross New York in an east/west direction.

You can't make it from the STWC to Jamestown either without hoping that a 25 kW dealership unit in Elmira is available. Also, the STWC is only accessible to northbound traffic. If you're going southbound, it adds nearly 20 miles to your trip.
 

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Wrong. You live in California, therefore - you are special.

Take a look at New York State. There are a grand total of 6 CCS stations with 50 kW capability or more west of Albany all the way to the Ohio border.
Four of them are EA on I-90. The other two are Chargepoint in Jamestown and the Southern Tier Welcome Center on northbound I-81 at the PA border.

Of the four EA stations on I-90, THREE of them have been down for over a week. It's getting close to two weeks now. You can't miss even one of them without doing an overnight in a hotel with destination L2, and there are THREE of them in a row that are down. The end result is that you have to plan a trip that includes a massive detour south to I-80 in PA if you want to cross New York in an east/west direction.

You can't make it from the STWC to Jamestown either without hoping that a 25 kW dealership unit in Elmira is available. Also, the STWC is only accessible to northbound traffic. If you're going southbound, it adds nearly 20 miles to your trip.
No, Colonel Sanders, you're wrong.

It would be the same for me whether I was in California, New York, or North Dakota. It starts with understanding what the vehicle is capable of and setting proper expectations. My 1,200-mile drive to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon and back on a two-day weekend in my 2017 Bolt EV was as challenging as any trip you could dream up for New York State, but because I knew what to plan for and went in with the proper expectations, the trip went exactly according to plan.

The only thing special about my living in California is that I understand what a somewhat robust public charging infrastructure would look like.
 

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...Of the four EA stations on I-90, THREE of them have been down for over a week. It's getting close to two weeks now. You can't miss even one of them without doing an overnight in a hotel with destination L2, and there are THREE of them in a row that are down. ...
This is so unexceptable.
What does EA have to say for themselves?

Does VW need to be spanked again for not following through with their plan?
 

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This is so unexceptable.
What does EA have to say for themselves?

Does VW need to be spanked again for not following through with their plan?
They have nothing to say other than "Chargers down, under repair". That's after probably 1-2 months of routine Plugshare reports of chargers being down, but they've been formally and officially down/under repair for over a week.
 

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This is so unexceptable.
What does EA have to say for themselves?

Does VW need to be spanked again for not following through with their plan?
They have to say that they have fulfilled the terms of their punitive agreement. It's simply the result of being legally obliged to provide a service instead of having a profit incentive to provide a service.

The VW money should have been spent on something like converting the nations school bus fleet to EV.
 

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The VW money should have been spent on something like converting the nations school bus fleet to EV.
Some of the money is going to that; however, a large population of EV owners were very vocal that EVs can travel like gas cars if only they had a robust fast charging network, and that is true to a certain extent.

I'm not going to assign to malice what could be assigned to incompetence. In the case of Electrify America, they simply didn't do enough consulting with actual EV owners who travel long distances before deciding on locations and setting up their charging sites. They also don't seem to be prioritizing charger reliability in the way they should. Even though they have made a number of improvements to their charger reliability, their primary focus appears to be on building the network out as quickly as possible first while addressing reliability and upkeep later.
 

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So they're transitioning Mt Kisco to Long Island? That's a huge "F** YOU" to upstate. Mt Kisco was the only delivery option west of NYC in February (and that's a crappy option for upstaters - Getting shafted over to Mt Kisco is why I own a Bolt), and if they're moving its license to Long Island, that leaves Brooklyn as the westernmost Tesla delivery center in the state. I'm even more glad I didn't give in to their shenanigans in February if that's what they think of upstate customers.


Wrong. You live in California, therefore - you are special.

Take a look at New York State. There are a grand total of 6 CCS stations with 50 kW capability or more west of Albany all the way to the Ohio border.
Four of them are EA on I-90. The other two are Chargepoint in Jamestown and the Southern Tier Welcome Center on northbound I-81 at the PA border.

Of the four EA stations on I-90, THREE of them have been down for over a week. It's getting close to two weeks now. You can't miss even one of them without doing an overnight in a hotel with destination L2, and there are THREE of them in a row that are down. The end result is that you have to plan a trip that includes a massive detour south to I-80 in PA if you want to cross New York in an east/west direction.

You can't make it from the STWC to Jamestown either without hoping that a 25 kW dealership unit in Elmira is available. Also, the STWC is only accessible to northbound traffic. If you're going southbound, it adds nearly 20 miles to your trip.
What exactly was your issue again with your delivery? Did they send you to Mt. Kisko but you preferred a different pick up location? Based on Tesla's map, there's a sales center in White Plains, 16 miles further south. There's also Paramus, NJ which from Syracuse is closer than Mt. Kisko (don't know where you're coming from but guessed central NY.) If you're coming from Binghamton, Paramus and Kisko are about the same. Why was Paramus not an option? I had considered picking up mine there. Did they dictate it without any options?
 

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....Take a look at New York State. There are a grand total of 6 CCS stations with 50 kW capability or more west of Albany all the way to the Ohio border.
Four of them are EA on I-90. The other two are Chargepoint in Jamestown and the Southern Tier Welcome Center on northbound I-81 at the PA border. .....
Wow. Looked at PlugShare. Upstate NY is a real mess! I'm planning a trip from Cape Cod down to AZ. Lots of solid DCFC stations (according to PlugShare) on what will be a 3,000 mile trip. Can't imagine why NY State is being treated so poorly in regard fast chargers.

Rich
 

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Wow. Looked at PlugShare. Upstate NY is a real mess! I'm planning a trip from Cape Cod down to AZ. Lots of solid DCFC stations (according to PlugShare) on what will be a 3,000 mile trip. Can't imagine why NY State is being treated so poorly in regard fast chargers.

Rich
It sounds like it's partially the state's doing. I was hearing New Yorkers talking about DCFC corridors being fully funded (maybe the EVolve network?) several years ago. It seems counter-intuitive to me that these so called "liberal" states that claim to place a high value on the environment and fighting climate change would be the worst when it comes to EV infrastructure. California is still waiting on several dozen Electrify America charging sites that should have gone live over a year ago, and we're still waiting on charging sites that were approved and funded four years ago. Meanwhile, Midwestern and mountain states are expanding their public charging infrastructure at a ridiculous pace. The infrastructure in Utah looks nothing like it did when I first visited three and a half years ago in my Bolt EV.
 

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What exactly was your issue again with your delivery? Did they send you to Mt. Kisko but you preferred a different pick up location? Based on Tesla's map, there's a sales center in White Plains, 16 miles further south. There's also Paramus, NJ which from Syracuse is closer than Mt. Kisko (don't know where you're coming from but guessed central NY.) If you're coming from Binghamton, Paramus and Kisko are about the same. Why was Paramus not an option? I had considered picking up mine there. Did they dictate it without any options?
At the time I ordered in February, Tesla's website promised, as an absolute worst case, nearest service center.
30109


For me, that is Henrietta/Rochester. In the event that I wasn't an "eligible customer" for Tesla Direct (since there is no way to determine this without placing an order, "all eligible customers" is not "all customers"), I verified that this was logistically feasible. I have a lot of friends who are RIT or UR alumni, and plenty of people were willing to give me a ride up to Rochester in exchange for dinner at Dino BBQ. In addition Ithaca is halfway so I could use it as a staging point for logistics as an alternative.

I placed my order, and was immediately shafted over to Mt Kisco. The only other option was Brooklyn. Both of these involve 6-8+ hours of Megabus + subway + Metro-North Railroad for Kisco.

Paramus, NJ is in New Jersey. A different state, hence you can't go there to pick up a vehicle. If I had the ability to pick up in New Jersey, I would've arranged for Springfield as my parents live less than 30 minutes away and we could have done some vehicle shuffle logistics. But since it's a different state, you can't pick up there.

I tried for 72 hours to try and reach anyone at Tesla who could find a viable logistics solution (spending a day on Megabus, then getting a hotel because I'd likely arrive after Kisco closed, then trying to get to the showroom from the hotel was NOT viable), and all I got was a useless "good luck, you're f*cked" email from my DSS, and a bunch of people parroting that the DSS who was not picking up the phone or answering any emails was best suited to help me. My sales guy stopped answering the phone or emails the moment he had my RN. At the time, their website indicated a further $500 penalty for any changes to an order including cancellations once submitted to the factory. I tried multiple times to have someone agree not to levy that fee if I gave Tesla past the 72 hour initial "holding" period, but no one at Tesla would allow that to happen and thus I was forced to cancel and file a credit card dispute over their bait-and-switch. (Which I won).

Tesla has updated their website documentation slightly, they now say "delivery center". JUST enough to not lose another credit card dispute, but do note that there is no way (or at least, was not as of the last documentation update I saw) to determine what actually constituted a "delivery center".
 

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At the time I ordered in February, Tesla's website promised, as an absolute worst case, nearest service center.
View attachment 30109

For me, that is Henrietta/Rochester. In the event that I wasn't an "eligible customer" for Tesla Direct (since there is no way to determine this without placing an order, "all eligible customers" is not "all customers"), I verified that this was logistically feasible. I have a lot of friends who are RIT or UR alumni, and plenty of people were willing to give me a ride up to Rochester in exchange for dinner at Dino BBQ. In addition Ithaca is halfway so I could use it as a staging point for logistics as an alternative.

I placed my order, and was immediately shafted over to Mt Kisco. The only other option was Brooklyn. Both of these involve 6-8+ hours of Megabus + subway + Metro-North Railroad for Kisco.

Paramus, NJ is in New Jersey. A different state, hence you can't go there to pick up a vehicle. If I had the ability to pick up in New Jersey, I would've arranged for Springfield as my parents live less than 30 minutes away and we could have done some vehicle shuffle logistics. But since it's a different state, you can't pick up there.

I tried for 72 hours to try and reach anyone at Tesla who could find a viable logistics solution (spending a day on Megabus, then getting a hotel because I'd likely arrive after Kisco closed, then trying to get to the showroom from the hotel was NOT viable), and all I got was a useless "good luck, you're f*cked" email from my DSS, and a bunch of people parroting that the DSS who was not picking up the phone or answering any emails was best suited to help me. My sales guy stopped answering the phone or emails the moment he had my RN. At the time, their website indicated a further $500 penalty for any changes to an order including cancellations once submitted to the factory. I tried multiple times to have someone agree not to levy that fee if I gave Tesla past the 72 hour initial "holding" period, but no one at Tesla would allow that to happen and thus I was forced to cancel and file a credit card dispute over their bait-and-switch. (Which I won).

Tesla has updated their website documentation slightly, they now say "delivery center". JUST enough to not lose another credit card dispute, but do note that there is no way (or at least, was not as of the last documentation update I saw) to determine what actually constituted a "delivery center".
If I order a Tesla, I will be picking it up in Tennessee (as one of my co-workers did)... I live in Arkansas... why do you think you could not pick up in New Jersey just because you live in New York? Now, this mistaken impression was probably exacerbated by nobody at Tesla answering your calls, so I understand your cancelling the order out of frustration... My impression is that they lost a sale because they cut off communication with you, if they had just answered your calls and said "yeah, you can pick up in New Jersey" they would have made the sale.

Keith
 

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If I order a Tesla, I will be picking it up in Tennessee (as one of my co-workers did)... I live in Arkansas... why do you think you could not pick up in New Jersey just because you live in New York? Now, this mistaken impression was probably exacerbated by nobody at Tesla answering your calls, so I understand your cancelling the order out of frustration... My impression is that they lost a sale because they cut off communication with you, if they had just answered your calls and said "yeah, you can pick up in New Jersey" they would have made the sale.

Keith
Tesla will only allow you to cross state lines if it's absolutely necessary (such as no delivery centers in your state) since Tesla doesn't want to deal with the sales tax headaches of crossing state lines. Maybe they're a bit more lenient if sales tax in the delivery state is higher than in your state of residence, but Jersey's sales tax is lower. Otherwise - you get what the website offers you (which will ONLY be in-state if a DC exists in your state) and that's that. I actually had someone from Short Hills try to sell me solar or a vehicle a month or two later. The moment he found out I didn't actually live in New Jersey (and I explicitly asked him if it would have been possible to pick up in Short Hills or Springfield, and that I wouldn't be considering Tesla for my next vehicle purchase unless that became possible) - he noped out and stopped talking.
 
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