[Dyefrog]

At the time I ordered in February, Tesla's website promised, as an absolute worst case, nearest service center.
View attachment 30109

For me, that is Henrietta/Rochester. In the event that I wasn't an "eligible customer" for Tesla Direct (since there is no way to determine this without placing an order, "all eligible customers" is not "all customers"), I verified that this was logistically feasible. I have a lot of friends who are RIT or UR alumni, and plenty of people were willing to give me a ride up to Rochester in exchange for dinner at Dino BBQ. In addition Ithaca is halfway so I could use it as a staging point for logistics as an alternative.

I placed my order, and was immediately shafted over to Mt Kisco. The only other option was Brooklyn. Both of these involve 6-8+ hours of Megabus + subway + Metro-North Railroad for Kisco.

Paramus, NJ is in New Jersey. A different state, hence you can't go there to pick up a vehicle. If I had the ability to pick up in New Jersey, I would've arranged for Springfield as my parents live less than 30 minutes away and we could have done some vehicle shuffle logistics. But since it's a different state, you can't pick up there.

I tried for 72 hours to try and reach anyone at Tesla who could find a viable logistics solution (spending a day on Megabus, then getting a hotel because I'd likely arrive after Kisco closed, then trying to get to the showroom from the hotel was NOT viable), and all I got was a useless "good luck, you're f*cked" email from my DSS, and a bunch of people parroting that the DSS who was not picking up the phone or answering any emails was best suited to help me. My sales guy stopped answering the phone or emails the moment he had my RN. At the time, their website indicated a further $500 penalty for any changes to an order including cancellations once submitted to the factory. I tried multiple times to have someone agree not to levy that fee if I gave Tesla past the 72 hour initial "holding" period, but no one at Tesla would allow that to happen and thus I was forced to cancel and file a credit card dispute over their bait-and-switch. (Which I won).

Tesla has updated their website documentation slightly, they now say "delivery center". JUST enough to not lose another credit card dispute, but do note that there is no way (or at least, was not as of the last documentation update I saw) to determine what actually constituted a "delivery center".

Well supposedly, there's a delivery center in White Plains so the snub to upstate isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be if true.
It's unfortunate that what most likely was a single point of failure being your sales advisor either overworked, under trained, or bad attitude resulted is not just a lost sale but you telling 4 times as many people about a bad experience than a good one is much worse. This isn't a knock on you, it's human nature, and it happens to all manufacturers.

Even though my experiences with Tesla have been good, and the logistics were similar, I found them to bend over backwards to accommodate my delivery at my convenience. They paid for the train ride and Uber. Communicated all required paperwork timely via e-mail, text, and phone calls. The transfer of signing papers, handing over the check, and 10 minute overview of the car had me on the road in 20 minutes after arrival. The only glitch was a delay on delivery which required rescheduling the pick-up. Annoying and frustrating certainly as you get excited for the big day and end up disappointed. I'm sure you went through the same emotions and I probably would have reacted the same way.

There are numerous examples such as yours that still cause concern and are slow to remediate. You certainly get more people airing grievances than accolades and with the shear number of BEV's they sell as a percentage of issues, it's difficult to tell if they are any worse than the others or if Tesla being under a microscope adds to the drama. I don't think it's fair though to assume because of your bad experience the entire company is a sh!tshow. Imperfect, definitely, but they have the most satisfied customers in the industry as well as the most compelling, advanced, efficient, safe, etc. cars on the road.
There's a reason everybody is compared to and gunning for Tesla and not the Bolt. Have you heard of any foreign manufacturers sending a Bolt overseas to reverse engineer? Has any other company used the Bolt as a benchmark or aspiration? Are design centers in Munich and Tokyo focusing on how to build a better Bolt? GM has a team dedicated just to disseminating everything they can about Tesla, the car, and Tesla, the company. I'm only using the Bolt as an example here, it could just as well be a Leaf.

The point is, when you spend as much time behind the wheel of a Tesla, you tend to accept the trade-offs when judging the entire experience. That panel gap doesn't seem so significant when you're making a road trip from Phoenix, AZ to St, Cloud, Mn with 4 1/2 hours of charging vs 12 1/2 hours in a Bolt.

The panel gap issues while real and resolvable, had people bringing micrometers to their pick-up. Certainly overblown due to the click-baity nature of all things Tesla but somewhat deserved.
But from all appearances, Tesla's biggest deficiencies are:

• Communication
• Communication
• Communication
• QC
• Service Centers

I don't know if it's growing pains or a culture or just an attitude of "we have no problems selling cars" it is what it is. Regardless, it tarnishes the image that will be difficult to turn around.
It's probably a combination of all three. They probably won't become their top priorities until demand starts to diminish unfortunately.

 

[Wolfy]

Things to think about. Tesla is in the news and on everyone's list because they did what the established makers said was impossible, and created a real, working, distance capable EV - AND built the infrastructure to support it. That said, the euphemism of the bigger they are, the harder they fall, will bite them in the rear if they aren't mindful of consumer issues. The U.S. is well versed on the "let the customer sort it out" mindset that permeated the big three back in the day. It's why you don't see people championing GM for their efforts. I can gurantee you that if you took the Bolt, scraped off all of the GM badges, and put Toyota badges, sales would explode, and the public would swoon how Toyota got it right once more - never mind that they completely ignored the Bolt in it's original GM flavor. Perception is huge. GM is a forever damaged company due to their history of contempt for their customers - especially in the Malaise Era. It's why their products are always dismissed after an initial 30 seconds of "what's this." Tesla is still in an area where they can escape this - IF - they get their QC issues and insance communication issues sorted. The "exoctic car" garbage that surrounds the brand keeps my Partner and I away from them. As they get cheaper cars to more people, their exotic car mindset ain't gonna fly, and they'll get eaten alive.

The industry won't say it, but they'd love to see Tesla burn. They can then jump for joy about how EVs are but another failed experiment, and sell you that ICE car, complete with it's cash cow of continual maintenance to keep it running reliably.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Things to think about. Tesla is in the news and on everyone's list because they did what the established makers said was impossible, and created a real, working, distance capable EV - AND built the infrastructure to support it. That said, the euphemism of the bigger they are, the harder they fall, will bite them in the rear if they aren't mindful of consumer issues. The U.S. is well versed on the "let the customer sort it out" mindset that permeated the big three back in the day. It's why you don't see people championing GM for their efforts. I can gurantee you that if you took the Bolt, scraped off all of the GM badges, and put Toyota badges, sales would explode, and the public would swoon how Toyota got it right once more - never mind that they completely ignored the Bolt in it's original GM flavor. Perception is huge. GM is a forever damaged company due to their history of contempt for their customers - especially in the Malaise Era. It's why their products are always dismissed after an initial 30 seconds of "what's this." Tesla is still in an area where they can escape this - IF - they get their QC issues and insance communication issues sorted. The "exoctic car" garbage that surrounds the brand keeps my Partner and I away from them. As they get cheaper cars to more people, their exotic car mindset ain't gonna fly, and they'll get eaten alive.

The industry won't say it, but they'd love to see Tesla burn. They can then jump for joy about how EVs are but another failed experiment, and sell you that ICE car, complete with it's cash cow of continual maintenance to keep it running reliably.

I'm not sure whether you're familiar with Turgenev, but there's a bit of fathers and sons element to it as well. Essentially, it's part of human nature for children to reject values and principles of their parents, and it can extend to consumer goods as well. As a result, GM and their brands also have the burden of being seen as the previous generation's car. It's why, despite being at the forefront in terms of technology, GM cars are dismissed out of hand as being old and outdated. Ironically, despite relying on older technology, Tesla vehicles are perceived as being new and cutting edge.

When people start to see more companies like Honda reject Tesla's offer of EV technology in favor of licensing GM's EV technology, it will also start to affect the perception that the new kid Tesla isn't actually technologically ahead of most of their competitors. So I see Tesla needing to improve not only their quality but also their underlying technology.

 

[Bolted On]

I’m puzzled by the assessment that Tesla technology is not as good as GM tech. One hears continually that Tesla is “years” head of everyone else. My personal experience with my Bolt has built a strong respect for its tech, but I don’t perceive Tesla as being tech inferior by any means.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

I’m puzzled by the assessment that Tesla technology is not as good as GM tech. One hears continually that Tesla is “years” head of everyone else. My personal experience with my Bolt has built a strong respect for its tech, but I don’t perceive Tesla as being tech inferior by any means.

Older does not necessarily mean inferior. There can be a time and place to leverage older technology, but those should be isolated cases, not the default solution. In particular, Tesla is still heavily reliant on cylindrical cell battery technology, which for automotive use is inferior to pouch cell battery technology. They are also heavily reliant on induction motors that, while they can do some things well, are inherently less efficient than other motor types. Tesla is also married to 400 V architecture, which requires them to push far more amps in order to achieve charging speeds that are still slower than the current CCS design.

 

[shrox]

One plus for Bolts is they don't get keyed like Teslas do. That technology hate mentality is strange. It's like Fred Flintstone feeling threatened by the George Jetson.

 

[Dyefrog]

I’m puzzled by the assessment that Tesla technology is not as good as GM tech. One hears continually that Tesla is “years” head of everyone else. My personal experience with my Bolt has built a strong respect for its tech, but I don’t perceive Tesla as being tech inferior by any means.

That assessment is only perceived by one person that I'm aware.

 

[Bolted On]

One plus for Bolts is they don't get keyed like Teslas do. That technology hate mentality is strange. It's like Fred Flintstone feeling threatened by the George Jetson.

Yes, truly strange how Tesla garners so much antagonism against its cars.

 

[Sean Nelson]

I’m puzzled by the assessment that Tesla technology is not as good as GM tech. One hears continually that Tesla is “years” head of everyone else. My personal experience with my Bolt has built a strong respect for its tech, but I don’t perceive Tesla as being tech inferior by any means.

I think Telsa's genius is in taking existing technology and packaging it in a way that appeals to people. They figured out what people actually wanted in terms of convenient charging in a way that completely eluded the standards committees at the time, and they've created an always-connected software platform for their vehicles that appeals to the smartphone generation. They basically did what Apple did, figured out how to make the technology user-friendly.

 

[shocker]

One plus for Bolts is they don't get keyed like Teslas do.

No loss there. Tesla's paint jobs are ****.

Now I've toyed with idea of flipping from a paid for Bolt to a Model Y, but common sense prevails as spending $30K for a modest upgrade in capability isn't worth it.

As far as Sandy Munro's love affair with Tesla, it's all about the extreme vertical integration (by modern standards) they have. Since their only business is making electric cars, they are relentless in cutting out costs from building them. And they don't wait till the next model year to change anything. Engineers like that sort of stuff.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

I think Telsa's genius is in taking existing technology and packaging it in a way that appeals to people. They figured out what people actually wanted in terms of convenient charging in a way that completely eluded the standards committees at the time, and they've created an always-connected software platform for their vehicles that appeals to the smartphone generation. They basically did what Apple did, figured out how to make the technology user-friendly.

I would take it a step further. Tesla simply built using the technology that was available at the time rather than waiting for the newer technology to mature and become profitable. Tesla understood that there was a high demand for EVs and that no one was addressing that market space. They also knew that most of the demand for EVs was driven by wealthy individuals who would pay a premium that would enable them to sell their EVs for a profit despite the high price of components. So even though the technology was overpriced and not designed with automotive use in mind (i.e., cylindrical cell batteries), Tesla pushed forward anyway.

This is, in my opinion, the main, valid criticism of automakers like GM. I believe I even posted something at the time of their ELR announcement that it was a mistake for GM to build it as a PHEV. Had the ELR instead been a RWD or AWD pure BEV, even with only 200 miles of range, GM could have sold as many as they could have made for $70,000 to $80,000. The mistake was simply in not doing -- that and a misunderstanding that consumers did not consider PHEVs to be EVs, no matter how well they are marketed. Now, due to their lack of initiative, the traditional automakers' biggest hurdle will be overcoming the narrative and propaganda of an EV media that is primarily driven by Tesla dollars and incentives. The current spin in EV media is egregious enough that consumers can no longer easily access objective assessments of upcoming EVs and their technologies and capabilities. Traditional automakers' next biggest mistake is likely to be spending too much effort attempting to win over an EV media that, due to the nature of its funding, won't give them fair coverage regardless of what they do.

 

[Dyefrog]

No loss there. Tesla's paint jobs are ****.

Now I've toyed with idea of flipping from a paid for Bolt to a Model Y, but common sense prevails as spending $30K for a modest upgrade in capability isn't worth it.

As far as Sandy Munro's love affair with Tesla, it's all about the extreme vertical integration (by modern standards) they have. Since their only business is making electric cars, they are relentless in cutting out costs from building them. And they don't wait till the next model year to change anything. Engineers like that sort of stuff.

Speaking of Sandy Munro, there's a recent 2 part interview with him from Zach and Jesse at "Now you Know". He spends some time discussing the advantages to the vertical integration in Tesla's favor that Detroit is loathe to consider. His background is within the industry at Ford for many years and talks about the kinds of things that Tesla encourages that Detroit would get you fired.

TL/DW:
He talks about his first teardown of the Model 3 and found lots of room for improvement. When this became public, Tesla reached out thanking him and requested his spreadsheet of problems.
It appears as though they incorporated some of his suggestions in later Model 3's and the current Model Y.
His teardown of the BMW i3 costs his firm over $2M, the Model 3 cost $800k.
He's sold his teardown of the Model 3 to most of the major players internationally except for Ford and GM. They never approached him. Not one North American company has bought it.
The speed at implementing his suggestions would never happen in Detroit. This touches on your comment about not waiting for the next model year to implement. I've heard they make about 35 tweaks every week on the production line.
He was fired 3 times at Ford and was considered a "wild dog". Most of his employees were considered "wild dogs". Tesla hires "wild dogs".
Disappointed that the Model Y did not have the big reduction of wiring which was touted before production. It's set up for multi-plexing but it's not implemented.
Tesla leads the way, if somebody's going to do something dramatically different it will be them.
He's putting out a series about "what to do next" that is aimed at the automotive industry in light of the paradigm shift BEV's are causing which was intended to help the legacy automakers. He's changing the name to "what Tesla should do next" since he doesn't expect legacy auto to consider his suggestions.
The Octovalve is a brilliant design resembling a circuit board as a mechanical device. He's in the process of X-raying it to see how it does what it does. The Octovalve is even better than the
Superbottle.
Compared the heat pump with Jaguars which he describes as "just sad". The Jaguar heat pump is 4 times bigger.
Most of his clients are buying his teardown of the Model Y.
The difference between Tesla's wiring harness and everybody else's is like night and day.
He works a lot with Chrysler and feels his work with them has helped the Ram truck win not just truck of the year but luxury vehicle of the year. The Pacifica won SUV hybrid of the year. Dodge #1 on J.D.Powers.
Toyota, Hyandai, Honda have all requested his Tesla teardowns.
He feels Model 3 and Model Y battery packs are identical.
The battery pack is the best there is. Loves the 2170 form factor. New anode and cathode chemistry will stand up to almost anything until solid state batteries become available.
Feels it's still a ways off for SS batteries but gives Tesla a 50-50 chance of revealing on Battery Day, they've figured out the mass production of SS batteries.
Doesn't know much about Maxwell.
Talks about Ultium million mile battery but doesn't see it's advantage outside of company's like Tesloop that have some cars with 700,000 miles.
Admits V2G is where the million mile battery holds promise but the current Tesla's do not have the proper inverter to take advantage. Not something that can be done OTA.
He thinks Tesla already has a million mile battery.
Tesla lies, they understate a lot. He thinks that the SS battery when it becomes a viable energy source will change the world in a short period of time.
Feels that if the SS battery is real, the laggards will benefit the most.

 

[RichCapeCod]

I just saw that the CEO of VW was canned, largely due to his push to move to EVs. The majors in the auto field are very much as Kodak was in the film industry. Too large, slow to move, resistant to change, inflexible, unforgiving of "wild dog" employees who might actually come up with ideas which would make the company money.

I've said this before; I'm not a "Tesla Bro" (or whatever the current name is for one of the "cult" followers), but I do recognize a vibrant innovative company turning out interesting useful products which I can use. I think, unless the management of the larger OEMs come out of the ether, that Tesla is going to eat their respective lunches.

Rich

 

[Voldar]

That panel gap doesn't seem so significant when you're making a road trip from Phoenix, AZ to St, Cloud, Mn with 4 1/2 hours of charging vs 12 1/2 hours in a Bolt.

Can you post a proof of that ? Unless you are talking about a deserted DCFC area, I can hardly see that happening. 2 hours or so, yes. I can get it. 8 hours, no way !

For exemple, for going to the same destination, a Bolt EV vs a Tesla LR 19 inches is behind by 1 hour 22 mins. The distance between A and B = 894 km (555 miles).

 

[Dyefrog]

Can you post a proof of that ? Unless you are talking about a deserted DCFC area, I can hardly see that happening. 2 hours or so, yes. I can get it. 8 hours, no way !

For exemple, for going to the same destination, a Bolt EV vs a Tesla LR 19 inches is behind by 1 hour 22 mins. The distance between A and B = 894 km (555 miles).

View attachment 30120
View attachment 30121

Actually, the difference for the entire trip is 11 hours since you have to detour with the Bolt adding over 100 miles. I only used these two cities as they are from another thread about a newbie bought a Bolt sight unseen and is flying to Phoenix and driving back to Minnesota. Average charge for the Tesla was 28 minutes x 9 stops. Avg. for Bolt 50 minutes x 15 stops.
The Canadian supercharger network is way behind CCS but they are starting to kick it in to high gear. But the Bolt still charged for twice as long with only 3 stops.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Actually, the difference for the entire trip is 11 hours since you have to detour with the Bolt adding over 100 miles. I only used these two cities as they are from another thread about a newbie bought a Bolt sight unseen and is flying to Phoenix and driving back to Minnesota. Average charge for the Tesla was 28 minutes x 9 stops. Avg. for Bolt 50 minutes x 15 stops.
The Canadian supercharger network is way behind CCS but they are starting to kick it in to high gear. But the Bolt still charged for twice as long with only 3 stops.
View attachment 30122 View attachment 30123

The $10,000+ premium isn't trivial, either.

That being said, ABRP is still extremely conservative for the Bolt EV, and it's not difficult to improve on their numbers by at least 20%. The other consideration is that, in either vehicle, you're looking at two days of driving, with at least one overnight stay. As long as you plan accordingly, you'd be shaving another 1.5 to 2 hours of DC fast charging off the Bolt EV's charging time.

 

[cyaopec]

I recently purchased a Model 3 LR AWD. Put 85k miles on the Bolt. The Bolt is world class. For me I couldn't stand the seats. Although I skimmed the Model 3 manual, you really don't need to read it if you've been reading Model 3 forums for a while. Here are a couple of points:

(1) Once your car is configured, you rarely need to use the touch screen. If you frequently do certain thing (raise or lower temperature), those can be done with voice commands. In reality, the touchscreen is a non-issue. Even in bright sunlight it's fully visible.
(2) Efficiency is about the same as the Bolt, meaning that if you accelerate modestly and stick to the speed limit, you'll be near or even surpass the EPA rating. My Model 3 was lightly used with only 10k miles on it, and today I clocked in at 318 miles if I was to run the battery down to 1 percent. So if you see a lot of posts by people getting numbers WAY below the EPA number, it's basically due to their driving or they always drive in really cold weather.
(3) Auto Pilot works well if you keep it on a divided highways as it's meant to be. Just be smart. If YOU can't tell where the lane markings are, then neither can the system. It's very nice in relieving the burden of clogged freeways.
(4) TACC by itself is nice. But it slows down a bit too much on really curvy surface streets. If there's no one behind you that's fine. If there is, it probably slows down too much for the driver behind you. My wife hates taking fast turns and actually loves how the car slows down for curves. Go figure.
(5) Texting and Navigation works as well as Apple Car Play. For music it is what it is--you basically have to use Siri with voice commands or use the phone itself. It's not a deal breaker. I think generally people like Car Play because their own car has such a terrible interface. But it's not that much of a downgrade going to the Model 3 system.

When the switch to digital photography began in the early 2000s it was a real paradigm shift. The advantages were clearly obvious. With electric, not so much. Your car is just getting you from point A to B. The only difference is the propulsion system. For a lot of people, they could care less. Tesla created "desire" by sharp design, insane performance, and this whole Auto Pilot/FSD thing. It doesn't matter what the reality is, people I work with at work know about this "self driving" thing. It's in their mind. I think for the legacy automakers they need to not just replace their ICE drive train with an electric one--because really . . . who cares how your car works? You have to improve the entire experience, from design to technological "coolness" so that everything about the car says the future. That's largely what Tesla has done and what the other automakers have failed at. It will be interesting to see if the Mach-E is holistically cool or just a poorly copied Tesla. I hope it's the former.

By the way, the Bolt is still incredible. I can think of lots of customers for who I would recommend it to as a purchase. I'm mad at GM that they actually produced the only seats in the world that caused me discomfort to sit in in 40+ years of driving.

 

[Fivedoor]

I recently purchased a Model 3 LR AWD. Put 85k miles on the Bolt. The Bolt is world class. For me I couldn't stand the seats. Although I skimmed the Model 3 manual, you really don't need to read it if you've been reading Model 3 forums for a while. Here are a couple of points:

(1) Once your car is configured, you rarely need to use the touch screen. If you frequently do certain thing (raise or lower temperature), those can be done with voice commands. In reality, the touchscreen is a non-issue. Even in bright sunlight it's fully visible.
(2) Efficiency is about the same as the Bolt, meaning that if you accelerate modestly and stick to the speed limit, you'll be near or even surpass the EPA rating. My Model 3 was lightly used with only 10k miles on it, and today I clocked in at 318 miles if I was to run the battery down to 1 percent. So if you see a lot of posts by people getting numbers WAY below the EPA number, it's basically due to their driving or they always drive in really cold weather.
(3) Auto Pilot works well if you keep it on a divided highways as it's meant to be. Just be smart. If YOU can't tell where the lane markings are, then neither can the system. It's very nice in relieving the burden of clogged freeways.
(4) TACC by itself is nice. But it slows down a bit too much on really curvy surface streets. If there's no one behind you that's fine. If there is, it probably slows down too much for the driver behind you. My wife hates taking fast turns and actually loves how the car slows down for curves. Go figure.
(5) Texting and Navigation works as well as Apple Car Play. For music it is what it is--you basically have to use Siri with voice commands or use the phone itself. It's not a deal breaker. I think generally people like Car Play because their own car has such a terrible interface. But it's not that much of a downgrade going to the Model 3 system.

When the switch to digital photography began in the early 2000s it was a real paradigm shift. The advantages were clearly obvious. With electric, not so much. Your car is just getting you from point A to B. The only difference is the propulsion system. For a lot of people, they could care less. Tesla created "desire" by sharp design, insane performance, and this whole Auto Pilot/FSD thing. It doesn't matter what the reality is, people I work with at work know about this "self driving" thing. It's in their mind. I think for the legacy automakers they need to not just replace their ICE drive train with an electric one--because really . . . who cares how your car works? You have to improve the entire experience, from design to technological "coolness" so that everything about the car says the future. That's largely what Tesla has done and what the other automakers have failed at. It will be interesting to see if the Mach-E is holistically cool or just a poorly copied Tesla. I hope it's the former.

By the way, the Bolt is still incredible. I can think of lots of customers for who I would recommend it to as a purchase. I'm mad at GM that they actually produced the only seats in the world that caused me discomfort to sit in in 40+ years of driving.

Were you able to get your used model 3 without them adding full self drive to pump up the price? I was thinking about a used 3, but every used 3 in Tesla inventory had full self drive, and I was told that they would not remove it to lower the price to my comfort zone.

Keith

 

[Dyefrog]

Here’s the latest from uncle Jack Rickard. Talks a bit about the Model Y (he bought one) and throws in a few jabs at Tesla. Also, the bolt makes a cameo at the beginning.

Takes a few swipes at Wall Street too.

 

[cyaopec]

Tesla ads Auto Pilot to all used vehicles whether they came with it or not--and this is for free as Auto Pilot is now standard on all vehicles.The inventory in Los Angeles and Northern California had very few cars with FSD. If all your inventory had FSD then it was originally purchased with the car. I'm guessing those might be vehicles that were purchased as toys by people with a lot of money. As there is no FSD they probably moved on to a Mercedes AMG or some other toy. The sales rep from the used inventory department told me a lot of people who paid cash were now "turning in their toys" after a year or two. You are not restricted to 200 miles of your zip code when looking at inventory. Look up the Tesla delivery locations nation wide and search in those locations. Search in Chicago, LA, San Francisco, Palm Beach, New York, etc. Tesla will tell you what it costs to ship the car to your region of the country. It was 500 bucks to transport the car from Northern California to Southern California. If you're going 1/2 way across the country it will be more. But don't just search using your zip code. Look nation wide. Only consider cars that have a good set of photos. I say that because some cars have a lot photos that are over or under exposed, thus potentially hiding cosmetic defects. Although Tesla does not recondition the car to "like new" status, my car was fully detailed and cleaned and in like new condition in terms of cleanliness.