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Concerning the three objections to the Y, I am inclined to agree on all three counts; for a “luxury” vehicle, Model Y lacks a lot of standard luxury features.
What luxury features does it lack?

As an aside, when fully autonomous driving becomes a reality, I would consider that the ultimate luxury feature, even above a chauffeur.
 

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People have mentioned heat steering wheel, ventilated seats, upscale materials, Homelink, etc. I'm not really into the "luxury" features, so I can't speak to exactly what it is missing. From a casual observer's perspective, though, no Tesla that I've sat in has felt like the luxury cars that I've sat in. In some ways, that's a good thing. In other ways, I can see why people don't consider Tesla to be an actual luxury brand.
 

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Saw my first Model Y last weekend at an EV club event. First thing I noticed were gaps in the Frunk as they pulled up. Stood out like a sore thumb.

Granted, the car was less than a week old, and will likely get some adjustments from Tesla when they can schedule it. But, spending that kind of money on a car, you would expect a little better build quality when you take delivery.
 

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What luxury features does it lack?

As an aside, when fully autonomous driving becomes a reality, I would consider that the ultimate luxury feature, even above a chauffeur.
At this point i wouldn't really consider them "luxury" features since Kias have these but they are cooled seats, heated steering wheel and Apple CarPlay.
 

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My lease on my 2017 Bolt Premier with all the packages is up in October. It is a 39 month lease and I've been wrestling with the decision on what to do. Should I buy my Bolt, buy a new 2020 (or 2021) Bolt, wait for the new RAV4 Plug-in hybrid (I am able to do without the car for 6 months or more), go with the Kia Niro Plug-In Hybrid, or bite the financial bullet and buy a Tesla Model Y? I finally got the opportunity to test Drive the Model Y, and I have to say I was disappointed. I already knew that all of the Teslas lacked the blind-spot monitor tools present in virtually every other modern car. No warning lights in the side-view mirrors, and the monitor with the pictorial representation of the car and the lane on either side did not show overtaking traffic until it was at the rear bumper. Worse, along with no warning of overtaking or any other traffic to the side, the rear window seems like a ship's porthole, rendering the view to the rear from the interior mirror virtually worthless. The Bolt's camera-based rear-view mirror looks really good in comparison.

The Model Y (dual motor all-wheel drive) is certainly faster in acceleration, roomier, and more "gee-whiz" tech. However, the no birds-eye view and the horrible visibility pretty much disqualifies it for us. I'm really glad I took the test drive, as when I got in the Bolt to drive home, I patted it fondly.

I'm currently leaning towards keeping my Bolt, as I know it intimately, have had absolutely no problems with it in 3 years and 30,000 miles. There are no real advantages over the 2017 in the 2020, other than the 21 miles of additional range. I know how mine has been cared for, specially in the way most of my charging has been done using the hill mode, so only going to 80%, never draining below 30%, and never using level 3 charging. I charge at home using my JuiceBox 40, and given the range, I only charge about once/week (retired so no regular commute). The only potential downside is that I live in AZ, and, although garage kept, she has been subjected to some extreme temperatures.

Financially, many will say that keeping is a bad move. I got one of the first Bolts delivered in Tucson, and there were no incentives available with the exception of the $7,500 tax credit. As I get closer to my turn-in or buy for $25,000 date, I'll keep looking for a 2020 (or 2021) for $30K before tax, allowing me to get a new Bolt for a $5,000 difference.

Interesting times.

Ron

I just purchased a 2017 premier... may i ask what average miles/kWh you have gotten over the life of your lease?
 

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At this point i wouldn't really consider them "luxury" features since Kias have these but they are cooled seats, heated steering wheel and Apple CarPlay.
Everyone has their own opinion on what "Luxury" defines.
Some consider expensive materials like leather, real wood, minimum hard plastics. For others it's comfort, complicated amalgam of switches and buttons, quiet, exclusive, powerful, technology, understated, overstated, big, spacious, quality, price, etc.
The Dodge Ram truck recently won Luxury Vehicle of the Year. Some would argue that doesn't fit the definition but the panel that chose the winner felt it did.
The statisticians that define the groupings must have some metrics that they use and it would be interesting to see what they are and if they've changed over the years.
As we're seeing the minimalist interiors start to take hold, the cockpit of yesterday will start to fade away as being a sign of opulence and more of confusion, especially as voice commands become the norm.
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For whatever reason, most publications feel that the Model 3 and Model Y are considered luxury vehicles and by most of the standards used to qualify their peers, they certainly are.

I've driven BMW's for 17 years before getting the Tesla and IMO, the Tesla would be more luxurious than the 5 Series BMW. The Tesla has more tech, real wood, better performance, equal quality of fit and finish (maybe even better but mileage on the Model 3 isn't enough to truly compare yet), better ride, comfort, features, space, pretty much every category except complicated interface that was glitchy in the BMW i-drive. Although, my last BMW was a 2005 545, so if I were to compare to a late model, the BMW probably would compare better. They make some nice cars.

What probably throws people into thinking that the Model 3 and Y can't be a luxury car is the price and that it is a performance car. It can humiliate a Porsche or Ferrari at a fraction of the price and they aren't considered luxury. There's also the mass market popularity that some can't align with luxury.
As they dial in their QC in Fremont, I don't know what would keep them from being considered a Luxury car unless your definition is opulent boat like ride.
 

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Everyone that bought FSD should get a refund. I have a hard time feeling badly for them though, because everyone knows you don't pay for something that doesn't exist yet.

I guess I don't know the difference between AP and EAP.

I specifically look for the worst condition cars because I want to pay less, and not caring about aesthetics is one way to pay less. That, and it hurts less when scratches and wear occurs since it was never pristine in the first place.
Depending on when they bought FSD, the refund may not be much. I paid $2k and they've slowly unlocked some of the features that are attributed to FSD. This is what allows them to capture some of that revenue on the balance sheet. That upgrade also included the install of the HW3 computer which they won't be removing so even if there were some class action lawsuit to make buyers whole due to unrealized functionality of a product, it would be peanuts.
The current pricing structure though has bundled Enhanced Autopilot as a standard feature which I paid $5k, but if you want FSD, it will cost $8,500 now but will be slowly increasing until the end of the year when the subscription based model will go into effect. Software will be their money maker in the Automotive Division, not pushing tin.


Some of the realized features are:
  • Smart Summon (cool parlor trick, more trouble than it's worth)
  • Homelink (love the auto open/close of overhead door on approach feature)
  • Navigate on Autopilot (far from perfect, takes too long for lane changes even in Mad Max mode and will signal before the car next to you has passed, leave it in user activate mode)
  • Lane changes in Autopilot (eliminates the need for blind spot monitoring)
  • Autopark (don't trust it in backing into a space like a parking lot)
  • Recognition of traffic lights and stop signs (this actually works quite well, if there's a car in front of me, it will continue straight through green lights without touching anything)
All of these are functional now with HW3. Whether you find them useful is another matter.

According to the article, the only remaining feature is automatic driving on city streets.
That's not to say that it's on the cusp of Level 4, no way. I wouldn't trust it to take me to work while I ride in the back seat the way it works now. Would probably get shot but other drivers.
 

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Discussion Starter #168
I just purchased a 2017 premier... may i ask what average miles/kWh you have gotten over the life of your lease?
It averages from 3.9-4.2, depending on driving conditions (highway vs city, etc.).
 

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I have an LT as Eric with the OEM tires and get 16.3 kWh/100 km = 3.8 miles/kWh in my runs at 110 km/h = 68 mph. I remember Eric saying also that the LT might be more efficient than a Premium for whatever reasons... maybe that would be the difference ? 🤔

Anyway, I use more the MyChevrolet app for my long trips and it is more accurate than ABRP using the info of my car, from my observations.
It doesn't seem like the roof rails and 10 lbs of Bose amplifier and subwoofer would make that much difference... but I wonder if those roof rails cause turbulence that we are not accounting for? I have never used them and would have prefered the looks of the car without them if it was an option to have a premier without the roof rails. Also, I mostly listen to podcasts, so the Bose system is not a huge advantage for me... I mainly wanted the heated rear seats, rear view camera, and birds eye view options.

Keith
 

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I am not sure this is the right approach. The consumption will be anyway skewed so... adding a faster speed will only make things worse and push the driver to stop when in RL he doesn’t need.
ABRP uses the base miles per kwh at 65 mph to calculate your miles per kwh at 30 mph and at 80 mph based on the "baseline" efficiency at 65 mph. If you change that baseline number it changes the calculations at all speeds throwing everything out of wack. If you change your % on speed (if you habitually drive over the speed limit, you probably do it at slow speed as well as on the highway) it is pretty good at adding that to the travel speed (estimates of driving time go down, and estimates of power consumed go up).

Keith
 

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It doesn't seem like the roof rails and 10 lbs of Bose amplifier and subwoofer would make that much difference... but I wonder if those roof rails cause turbulence that we are not accounting for? I have never used them and would have prefered the looks of the car without them if it was an option to have a premier without the roof rails. Also, I mostly listen to podcasts, so the Bose system is not a huge advantage for me... I mainly wanted the heated rear seats, rear view camera, and birds eye view options.

Keith
As far as I know, the rails aren't an option on the Premier and cannot be removed. As long as there is no wind or the wind is primarily a headwind, the base rails on the Premier shouldn't have an effect, but how often is that the case? Of the other factors, I'd say that parasitic losses from onboard systems would be the next biggest difference in energy draw, and with a dedicated amp and subwoofer, that could definitely be noticeable. The fact that the efficiency difference between the LT and Premier seems the greatest at higher speeds, I'm leaning toward the roof rails being the biggest difference.

When I drove the 2020 Bolt EV (Premier) at low speeds, its efficiency was actually better than I've ever seen in my 2017 Bolt EV, even with the Cruze ECO rims. The high-speed efficiency seemed a little worse,though. When I did my 621.4 mile speed test, the average driving speed was just under 70 mph. For that run, the 2020 Bolt EV had a 3.3 mi/kWh efficiency. That's just a little lower than I would expect for my 2017 Bolt EV, which maintained 3.2 mi/kWh at 75 mph constant speed. Both were A-B-A routes, but the efficiency might actually be closer than it appears, because on the 621.4 mile run, the 2020 Bolt EV had to maintain 80 mph for about 200 miles as well as cross several 4,000' to 6,000' summits with at least an hour or so of driving in sub-freezing temperatures.

Without head-to-head testing in the same conditions, it will be hard to tell, but it appears that at least the 2020 model year of Bolt EV Premier is getting very similar efficiency to my 2017 Bolt EV LT with Cruze ECO rims.
 

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  • Recognition of traffic lights and stop signs (this actually works quite well, if there's a car in front of me, it will continue straight through green lights without touching anything)
I'm curious how the Tesla handles situations where it can't see the traffic light? If a large truck is ahead of you, you've got to lag back to see the lights, then catch back up to go through the intersection without slowing everyone else down too much.
 

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I'm curious how the Tesla handles situations where it can't see the traffic light? If a large truck is ahead of you, you've got to lag back to see the lights, then catch back up to go through the intersection without slowing everyone else down too much.
That's a good question. My guess and it's just that until I can verify, is that it will extrapolate the camera images it stores and in this case will follow the truck when it starts to move. What I mean by that is it will "remember" that 47 1/2' ahead, there "was" a traffic light that was red. Once it sees the light again, it will reengage traffic light awareness but may require a tap on the accelerator to confirm you know you're going through a traffic light and give it permission. If the light was red and the truck ran the red light, the Tesla would stop.
I would like to test this out though since the way it currently works is that if the light is green and there's a vehicle ahead of you within the required distance, it will proceed through the green light unprompted if it is certain it's a straight lane meaning not a turn lane that can also be a straight lane.
I know that it does this extrapolation with the road lines and does a decent job. There may be hundreds of yards of new pavement without lines that it still will maintain it's lane if it was on autopilot prior to the new pavement. I think it's using the edge of pavement in this case. But on a road without lines if autopilot is not engaged, it won't let me engage it until the lines show up.
There was a video of a guy that was able to get autopilot to engage on a gravel road. Not convinced it was true though.
 

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That's a good question. My guess and it's just that until I can verify, is that it will extrapolate the camera images it stores and in this case will follow the truck when it starts to move. What I mean by that is it will "remember" that 47 1/2' ahead, there "was" a traffic light that was red. Once it sees the light again, it will reengage traffic light awareness but may require a tap on the accelerator to confirm you know you're going through a traffic light and give it permission. If the light was red and the truck ran the red light, the Tesla would stop.
I would like to test this out though since the way it currently works is that if the light is green and there's a vehicle ahead of you within the required distance, it will proceed through the green light unprompted if it is certain it's a straight lane meaning not a turn lane that can also be a straight lane.
I know that it does this extrapolation with the road lines and does a decent job. There may be hundreds of yards of new pavement without lines that it still will maintain it's lane if it was on autopilot prior to the new pavement. I think it's using the edge of pavement in this case. But on a road without lines if autopilot is not engaged, it won't let me engage it until the lines show up.
There was a video of a guy that was able to get autopilot to engage on a gravel road. Not convinced it was true though.
Now that you bring up the truck running the red I have to wonder about this situation myself. I was following a big truck in city traffic, the last time I saw the light before the truck blocked it from view it was green... it went red before the truck got to the intersection, but the truck ran the red and I ran the red right behind him because I didn't see it was red until I was in the intersection... I would think that unless the Tesla on autopilot backed way off to a huge following distance the same thing would happen to it.

Keith
 

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Now that you bring up the truck running the red I have to wonder about this situation myself. I was following a big truck in city traffic, the last time I saw the light before the truck blocked it from view it was green... it went red before the truck got to the intersection, but the truck ran the red and I ran the red right behind him because I didn't see it was red until I was in the intersection... I would think that unless the Tesla on autopilot backed way off to a huge following distance the same thing would happen to it.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I witness a court case where the defendant had received a citation for failure to obey a traffic control device (ran a red light). His defense was that he couldn't tell it was red because the truck ahead was blocking view of the traffic lights. The judge said that it's his responsibility to back off until the traffic lights are visible, not to proceed through an intersection without knowing the status of the lights. He lost that case.

That brings up my next question, is Tesla aware enough to not block intersections and roadways? If traffic backs up, there's a legal requirement to not block cross streets or the intersection. That requires seeing what traffic is doing ahead and making a decision to proceed forward or to hold.
 

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That's exactly what I'm talking about. I witness a court case where the defendant had received a citation for failure to obey a traffic control device (ran a red light). His defense was that he couldn't tell it was red because the truck ahead was blocking view of the traffic lights. The judge said that it's his responsibility to back off until the traffic lights are visible, not to proceed through an intersection without knowing the status of the lights. He lost that case.

That brings up my next question, is Tesla aware enough to not block intersections and roadways? If traffic backs up, there's a legal requirement to not block cross streets or the intersection. That requires seeing what traffic is doing ahead and making a decision to proceed forward or to hold.
Again, WAG here but if the light was red when the Tesla pulled up behind the truck and it now can't see the light, it probably will stay red on my screen until it sees it as green. It's hard to tell what angles the cameras catch but it will relay the turning arrows painted on the pavement well before I get to them so it's fairly broad in what it captures. But back to the point, when the car/truck in front of you starts to move regardless of a green light or stuck in traffic, the Tesla has a slight delay that allows the car to get about 1 1/2 full car lengths ahead before it starts to move. Almost enough for someone to sneak in as they jockey for position. It's likely that in the scenario you guys have painted, it will allow the truck to move enough until it sees the traffic light and proceeds accordingly. If it's green, the Tesla will start to move, if it's red, it won't. I think it will run the red light though if you override it and press the accelerator after it's already come to a stop so you could manually run the red light, but when coming up on one, if I try to brake more or less than the car is programmed to, it has a bit of a stutter or weird almost ABS thing going on. It makes you look like a real sh!tty driver. Thanks Tesla.
Whether it knows enough to not block an intersection, can't say. Sometimes it surprises me with what it seems to know and other times I find it lacking.

I'll give you an example of where it should be able to perform like a human but I don't think it does and that's when I'm on the interstate, approaching a cloverleaf on ramp and long before I get to it, I've already scoped out if there will be a merging car that may require me to either slow down, speed up, or move over. Long before this becomes a last minute maneuver, it's already been resolved stress free. It shouldn't be very difficult for the camera's and radar to see the merging car and along with the mapping and data, see the problem before it occurs. They do this all the time with accident prevention that the radar picks up and the driver never sees. Well, a couple of times as I was driving past the rest stops, with no cars in front of me slowing me down, it would pull into the left lane before it reached the on ramp possibly avoiding a merging car that it assumed could be coming into the right lane in 300 feet. But it doesn't do it at every one so at first I thought, wow, that's pretty clever cause that's what I do but now I'm not so sure.
 

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Some large trucks require more like 5 car lengths to see the light from the height of a sedan. Pretty neat technology regardless. I would love to have the existing Tesla tech now, but am unwilling to pay (current prices) to play. I have been softening my wife up to the idea of a CyberTruck though. There's little chance I'll be willing to get one when it comes out, but might as well begin the softening now just in case. That, and I can always use it to compromise down to something else. Always better to negotiate down to what you want than to fight your way up.
 
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