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It's about time someone stood up to Tesla and gave them an ultimatum WRT opening up their "walled garden" Supercharger network and stopping public monies going towards funding a 100% private, proprietary network that owners of only a single brand can use.
https://electrek.co/2019/07/23/new-york-pressures-tesla-to-open-up-supercharger-network/
You may have been reading a different article than what you linked.
There was nothing in there about public monies funding the network. It was about an exemption to demand fees.


"unless it opens up its Supercharger network to other vehicles, its stations will get no relief from demand charges "
Similar to how the Federal Tax Credit is not a rebate.
I suspect they may throw a single Chademo on site or mimic the Vegas model with batteries and storage.


https://teslamotorsclub.com/blog/2019/07/22/teslas-v3-supercharger-rollout-highlighted-with-new-las-vegas-station/
 

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You may have been reading a different article than what you linked.
There was nothing in there about public monies funding the network. It was about an exemption to demand fees.


"unless it opens up its Supercharger network to other vehicles, its stations will get no relief from demand charges "
Similar to how the Federal Tax Credit is not a rebate.
I suspect they may throw a single Chademo on site or mimic the Vegas model with batteries and storage.


https://teslamotorsclub.com/blog/2019/07/22/teslas-v3-supercharger-rollout-highlighted-with-new-las-vegas-station/
"The commissioners rebutted that they did not want “to direct ratepayer funds to an already successful proprietary network.”
 

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I used the new Electrify America station at Herkimer this morning I started at 80% charge and did not note the rate. But I stopped at 90 % SOC the rate was 17 kWhr. I used the right side charger the second from the left did not initialize for me twice.
 

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Discussion Starter #106
I suspect they may throw a single Chademo on site .....
I don't think that chademo can fulfill the requirement "equally powerful" I believe that currently only CCS can do that. Tesla can of course add the batteries, as you suggest, but that won't get them the reduced demand charges. It solves their expense problem by deploying additional capital, which they have precious little of.

I will however give the caveat that Tesla has very good lawyers, so let's see what happens.

I have to say that even though I believe this has somewhat delayed the rollout of DC fast-charge in New York, I'm all behind NY and can be a little patient if delaying it and fighting this war with Tesla to open up their Network proves successful.
 

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Discussion Starter #107
I used the new Electrify America station at Herkimer this morning I started at 80% charge and did not note the rate. But I stopped at 90 % SOC the rate was 17 kWhr. I used the right side charger the second from the left did not initialize for me twice.
I saw your post on plugshare, thanks very much for testing it, a lot of us have been very much looking forward to this site opening. I personally am very excited that we now have Erie, Fredonia, Buffalo, Waterloo, and Herkimer all open. We can travel I90 from one side of the state to the other!!
 

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It's about time someone stood up to Tesla and gave them an ultimatum WRT opening up their "walled garden" Supercharger network and stopping public monies going towards funding a 100% private, proprietary network that owners of only a single brand can use.
https://electrek.co/2019/07/23/new-york-pressures-tesla-to-open-up-supercharger-network/
You may have been reading a different article than what you linked.
There was nothing in there about public monies funding the network. It was about an exemption to demand fees.


"unless it opens up its Supercharger network to other vehicles, its stations will get no relief from demand charges "
Similar to how the Federal Tax Credit is not a rebate.
I suspect they may throw a single Chademo on site or mimic the Vegas model with batteries and storage.


https://teslamotorsclub.com/blog/2019/07/22/teslas-v3-supercharger-rollout-highlighted-with-new-las-vegas-station/
The way this incentive works is that the owner of the station still pays demand fees, but the Public Service Commission reimburses then for the first three years. The reimbursement is paid out of public funds.
 

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Made a trip out from Rochester to the Utica / Herkimer area and back (333 miles). Conditions were great and averaged 4.0 miles per kWh.

Charged at EA Herkimer for only 10 minutes since not everyone wanted to eat at Dennys. Charged from 37% to 48% at an average rate of about 41 kWh. Getting to the chargers was easy. They were off to the side and not in the way of anything. Only technical slow down was my learning how to start a session with my phone—this was my first time with EA.

Charged at EA Waterloo for 51 minutes from 29% to 55% for an average rate of about 21 kW. Actually charged at 40 kW for about 2.5 minutes on another charger until it stopped -- I think because of the jolt caused by shutting my door. I tried two more times on that charger, then three times on the next charger, and three more times on the final charger before I got a session that didn't error out on me. Hoping that EA doesn't charge me $1 session fee for each attempt. Frustrating! Also the location of the chargers is not good: right next to a busy stop sign so you have to back out into traffic. I would have preferred the charging site to be off to the side and closer to the restrooms and food court.

Very nice to have the option to stop and charge of course.
 

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It's about time someone stood up to Tesla and gave them an ultimatum WRT opening up their "walled garden" Supercharger network and stopping public monies going towards funding a 100% private, proprietary network that owners of only a single brand can use.
https://electrek.co/2019/07/23/new-york-pressures-tesla-to-open-up-supercharger-network/
I am torn on this one because I swallowed real hard and traded in my Bolt and spent significantly more dollars on an M3 Mai LT to get access to the super charger network. On the one hand I want mass EV adoption because the planet needs it and Tesla network right now the only game in town. On the other hand those that did not shell out the money for access...Why should you all suddenly get access and on top of that suddenly as a Tesla opener who has paid $$$$ has to wait in line to get my EV charged.. As I said I am torn.

One idea should be a one time 10-15k charge for non Tesla owners to gain access. I am not for giving access to non Tesla owners for free!
 

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Discussion Starter #111 (Edited)
I am torn on this one because I swallowed real hard and traded in my Bolt and spent significantly more dollars on an M3 Mai LT to get access to the super charger network. On the one hand I want mass EV adoption because the planet needs it and Tesla network right now the only game in town. On the other hand those that did not shell out the money for access...Why should you all suddenly get access and on top of that suddenly as a Tesla opener who has paid $$$$ has to wait in line to get my EV charged.. As I said I am torn.

One idea should be a one time 10-15k charge for non Tesla owners to gain access. I am not for giving access to non Tesla owners for free!
I think you might have missed some key subtleties regarding this issue. No one is expecting any competing automanfacturer at this point to release vehicles that use the Tesla plug, we would not have access to the existing SC network you paid extra to have access to, and NY is not asking Tesla to alter the rollout or access to Tesla superchargers. What NY has said is:

  • To help speed deployment of publicly accessible DCFC, NY is offering rebates of demand charges (from public funds) for newly installed locations if you chose to offer a publicly accessible connection
If you chose to keep it a proprietary connection, that the public can't use, that is your choice, but no public funds to offset your demand charges. Business as usual for Tesla, no big deal.


The compromise that NY has proposed is if Tesla were to make one public charger available, presumably CCS, as it stipulates "of comparable capacity" which I believe excludes Chademo, then they would be entitled to the demand charge rebates. Observing how spiteful Tesla appears to be regarding this,if they chose to do so I fully expect them to only install a single CCS connector such that CCS vehicles would be queued in a line while Tesla Supercharger slots sit empty.


A completely separate issue that you have raised is the debate regarding access to the Tesla supercharger network by non-Tesla vehicles. Elon has stated that his goal is to "speed EV adoption" , if this were actually true than he would open the supercharger network to competing vehicles. There is absolutely no reason for GM, or any competing car manufacturer, to pay Tesla for access to the supercharger network, why would they want to support the competition?

A north america standard DCFC connection exists and Tesla is a member of the (CCS) organization. They have complied with the CCS standard in Europe when legally forced to do so, so why not the US?

If your real objective was to "speed adoption of EVs" you would have chargers for all types of vehicles and simply charge a higher $$/kW rate for non-tesla vehicles to recoup the capital investment. You could turn your supercharger advantage into a nice revenue stream and then your vehicles would compete on other aspects.

Regardless of my opinion, the window of opportunity on this for Tesla is rapidly closing with the significant progress EA has made. As mentioned above you can now travel across NY state using EA DCFC. and they continue to deploy stations at a very impressive rate. A couple of years ago your "pay to play" capital investment of thousands of $$ might have sold a few subscriptions, but that ship has sailed. I doubt you would get anyone to pay more than several hundred dollars at this point for access to the supercharger network.

For the record, Tesla is not the only company to file opposition to the new incentive, Chargepoint also feels they are harmed for being a market leader and the incentive not being retroactive to already installed locations.

It will certainly be interesting to see Elon's next move here...
 

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Regardless of my opinion, the window of opportunity on this for Tesla is rapidly closing with the significant progress EA has made.
Here in Virginia, EA's progress has ground to a halt. The pause may be related to the cable cooling problem. Several new installations have been sitting apparently complete, but unusable, for two months.
 

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Discussion Starter #113 (Edited)
Here in Virginia, EA's progress has ground to a halt. The pause may be related to the cable cooling problem. Several new installations have been sitting apparently complete, but unusable, for two months.
I too was very frustrated that stations in New York, that appeared complete, had not yet opened by the start of the summer driving season, on Memorial day.

As of today EA has opened 24 locations so far in July, total now open of 256, and an additional 194 "coming soon"

I've got my fingers crossed for you that they are able to open the stations important to you next 😉
 

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I am torn on this one because I swallowed real hard and traded in my Bolt and spent significantly more dollars on an M3 Mai LT to get access to the super charger network. On the one hand I want mass EV adoption because the planet needs it and Tesla network right now the only game in town. On the other hand those that did not shell out the money for access...Why should you all suddenly get access and on top of that suddenly as a Tesla opener who has paid $$$$ has to wait in line to get my EV charged.. As I said I am torn.

One idea should be a one time 10-15k charge for non Tesla owners to gain access. I am not for giving access to non Tesla owners for free!
The supercharger network accessibility requirements are not just a membership fee (although $10k-$15k is most likely a lot more than what Tesla requires. I think it's about a $2k per car factored into the sales price now) but there's also the compatibility and charging capacity requirements. Even if GM approached Tesla and said "OK, we want in", it's impossible based on the current offerings. Not just GM, only Audi I believe would meet the minimum charging speed that's been defined. This has been the program since 2014, unfortunately, it's probably a moving target as the Tesla battery tech continues to pull away from the competition, so to will their minimum requirements to avoid congestion. Just the fact that they have offered access should prove that they are doing what they can to speed up adoption. Similar to the open patents.
So it's not just a matter of opening up the network if you really mean what you claim. I do agree though that none of the legacy companies have signed on more due to adding credibility and potentially prolonging or supporting Tesla's long term survival. Something that none of them thought would come to pass.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/28/will-teslas-maxwell-technologies-acquisition-improve-charging-speed/
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/27/auto-experts-tesla-has-7-year-head-start-over-legacy-automakers/

It does seem as though some here feel entitled to access to a private service. I don't understand why anyone would think that Tesla owes non-Tesla vehicles access to something that they didn't contribute towards. I have a set of golf clubs but I wouldn't expect the private country club down the road to let me play a round of golf even if I offered to pay for it. And they want the golfing community to grow. How is that not supporting their mission.

To another point of "if Tesla really wants to accelerate sustainable transportation, they would provide the nationwide charging infrastructure at no cost to every EV", is ridiculous. They've set down the ground rules to "join the club". There's a cost to run the club. Why would Tesla owners be obligated to foot the bill for everyone else?

It will be interesting how this will play out though. NY may have shot themselves in the foot since Tesla's comprise about 80% of the EV's currently being sold and the supercharger network continues to expand at a breakneck speed. All Tesla would need to do is copy the new Vegas V3 station with batteries and solar and avoid the grid altogether. Not sure what National Grid would think about that.
 

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It will be interesting how this will play out though. NY may have shot themselves in the foot since Tesla's comprise about 80% of the EV's currently being sold and the supercharger network continues to expand at a breakneck speed. All Tesla would need to do is copy the new Vegas V3 station with batteries and solar and avoid the grid altogether. Not sure what National Grid would think about that.
There is no "shooting in the foot" going on here.

You seem to be confusing the NYS Public Service Commission (a state-run commission which is paying this subsidy through public funds) with National Grid (a private company which owns the grid, and is actually based out of the UK). I doubt NY cares what National Grid thinks of Tesla going off the grid. In fact, the state's goal is to clean up the production of electricity, which solar + batteries + EVs does quite well.

Moreover, Tesla will not likely truly go off the grid. They would have a decent bank of batteries mostly to reduce instantaneous demand, NOT to store only solar (which has a HUGE seasonal variation in NY, unlike in NV). National Grid would probably LOVE to have a customer go from sporadically high-demand but low consumption to consistently low demand (i.e. smoothed out with batteries).
 

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Discussion Starter #117
It looks like Tesla might comply with NY by "partnering" with EA to have chargers co-located, seems very reasonable... "Tesla has partnered with Electrify America on the project "

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It looks like Tesla might comply with NY by "partnering" with EA to have chargers co-located, seems very reasonable... "Tesla has partnered with Electrify America on the project "
This is an interesting approach. I wonder what EA gets out of this partnership? Tesla's benefit is pretty obvious, if it allows them to comply with the PSC's requirements and gain the demand charge refund incentive.
 

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Made a trip out from Rochester to the Utica / Herkimer area and back (333 miles). Conditions were great and averaged 4.0 miles per kWh.

Charged at EA Herkimer for only 10 minutes since not everyone wanted to eat at Dennys. Charged from 37% to 48% at an average rate of about 41 kWh. Getting to the chargers was easy. They were off to the side and not in the way of anything. Only technical slow down was my learning how to start a session with my phone—this was my first time with EA.

Charged at EA Waterloo for 51 minutes from 29% to 55% for an average rate of about 21 kW. Actually charged at 40 kW for about 2.5 minutes on another charger until it stopped -- I think because of the jolt caused by shutting my door. I tried two more times on that charger, then three times on the next charger, and three more times on the final charger before I got a session that didn't error out on me. Hoping that EA doesn't charge me $1 session fee for each attempt. Frustrating! Also the location of the chargers is not good: right next to a busy stop sign so you have to back out into traffic. I would have preferred the charging site to be off to the side and closer to the restrooms and food court.

Very nice to have the option to stop and charge of course.
It is good to know that that Herkimer is up and running. I made a trip out to Waterloo a couple of weeks ago with the family and debated whether to take my new Bolt but the wasteland between Albany and Waterloo just looked too scary to me. We took the ICE vehicle instead.

We did stop along the way at Herkimer tjust to check it out and it sure looked up and ready for business. The Monday after we returned EA declared it Online so we just missed it by a week.

I am puzzled by your charging numbers though. If you were at less than 50% battery capacity then shouldn't your charge rate have been at least 50 kW? I am still new to the Bolt and really haven't needed to use DCFC much yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #120
I am guessing that by bringing in the transformer and equipment to service the power delivery, and doing the construction at the same time, it significantly lowers the install cost for EA. Potentially Tesla handles all the permitting as well. Additionally, if Tesla has done the site selection, it saves EA from having a separate request or tenant charge
 
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