[Lin19687]

Well I will post mine here when they finally come out with a pick up truck

 

[vex]

I test drove another Bolt and a couple of Volts. It looks like the Gen2 Volt 2016/2017 is going to be the winner.

I loved the Bolt and it would be my first choice, but they are just way too expensive.

 

[KeithMoon]

I test drove another Bolt and a couple of Volts. It looks like the Gen2 Volt 2016/2017 is going to be the winner.

I loved the Bolt and it would be my first choice, but they are just way too expensive.

I'd recommend a first generation Volt over a 2nd generation. The 1st Gen has a 5/5 CR reliability rating vs 3/5 for the 2nd gen.

 

[vex]

I'd recommend a first generation Volt over a 2nd generation. The 1st Gen has a 5/5 CR reliability rating vs 3/5 for the 2nd gen.

Thanks for the tip...I'll look more closely at it, reliability issues in the Voltec system or other? After driving both, the Gen2 felt more refined and comfortable, which was why I put it over the Gen1.

 

[KeithMoon]

I'd recommend a first generation Volt over a 2nd generation. The 1st Gen has a 5/5 CR reliability rating vs 3/5 for the 2nd gen.

Thanks for the tip...I'll look more closely at it, reliability issues in the Voltec system or other? After driving both, the Gen2 felt more refined and comfortable, which was why I put it over the Gen1.

I'd recommend you read the consumer reports article on each vehicle. I am sure there are many reasons for the difference in reliability, but a big difference is that the first generation Volt has a direct drive whereas the 2nd gen has a chain drive, so there is one component that could be a big expense over 100k miles. The 1st Gen Volt has been shown to be good for more than 300k miles without any major expenditure.

 

[cwerdna]

Took our Bolt in for inspection today, at our local small Chevy dealer. They have a 2017 LT with DCFC, Comfort & Convenience Package, Driver Confidence Package, and rubber mats, in addition to the carpet ones. Only 12K miles, for $26K. I checked it with my Torque Pro. Battery capacity shows 60.9 kWh. Somebody is going to be very happy.

As others have pointed out, that's not a particularly good price and was pretty awful when the tax credit on new GM EVs/PHEVs was still $7500.

Also, people should stop referring to the Federal tax credit as a rebate. It's not a rebate and not be confused w/actual rebates provided in areas (e.g. utility, county, state, etc.)

 

[KeithMoon]

Took our Bolt in for inspection today, at our local small Chevy dealer. They have a 2017 LT with DCFC, Comfort & Convenience Package, Driver Confidence Package, and rubber mats, in addition to the carpet ones. Only 12K miles, for $26K. I checked it with my Torque Pro. Battery capacity shows 60.9 kWh. Somebody is going to be very happy.

As others have pointed out, that's not a particularly good price and was pretty awful when the tax credit on new GM EVs/PHEVs was still $7500.

Also, people should stop referring to the Federal tax credit as a rebate. It's not a rebate and not be confused w/actual rebates provided in areas (e.g. utility, county, state, etc.)

For the specific people who have been subsidizing other people's transportation through their taxes, it technically is a rebate since it is a partial return of money spent.

It is not a rebate for people who have previously been driving ICEs (since they didn't overpay their taxes, as they already received a subsidy on their fuel in return for their tax monies). It is also not a rebate for those who don't have a large enough tax liability to have paid any tax in the first place.

noun
/ˈrēˌbāt/
1.
a partial refund to someone who has paid too much money for tax, rent, or a utility.

 

[cwerdna]

For the specific people who have been subsidizing other people's transportation through their taxes, it technically is a rebate since it is a partial return of money spent.

It is not a rebate for people who have previously been driving ICEs (since they didn't overpay their taxes, as they already received a subsidy on their fuel in return for their tax monies). It is also not a rebate for those who don't have a large enough tax liability to have paid any tax in the first place.

There's really not point in perpetuating the use of the wrong words.

The IRS uses the words "credit" (e.g. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d and https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-8936) not "rebate".

A quick Google search for difference between tax credit and rebate turned up https://www.marketplace.org/2009/03/05/your-money/ask-money/tax-credit-and-tax-rebate from 20-09.

Answer: I thought I knew the difference between a tax credit and a tax rebate, but I wasn't quite sure. So I put your question to the financial advisor and professional polymath Scott Gislason at North Star Resource Group in Minneapolis. He's a lawyer, a CPA (certified public accountant), a CLU (chartered life underwriter) and ChFC (chartered financial consultant).

Here what he says: "There's an often overlooked difference between "tax credits" and "tax rebates". Generally speaking, tax credits only offset tax balances due - meaning if you have low income and owe nothing in tax, you get no benefit from a credit. Whereas, tax rebates are paid to a taxpayer regardless whether a tax is payable. There is an exception to this rule - the earned income tax credit which operates like a rebate."

 

[KeithMoon]

For the specific people who have been subsidizing other people's transportation through their taxes, it technically is a rebate since it is a partial return of money spent.

It is not a rebate for people who have previously been driving ICEs (since they didn't overpay their taxes, as they already received a subsidy on their fuel in return for their tax monies). It is also not a rebate for those who don't have a large enough tax liability to have paid any tax in the first place.

There's really not point in perpetuating the use of the wrong words.

The IRS uses the words "credit" (e.g. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d and https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-8936) not "rebate".

A quick Google search for difference between tax credit and rebate turned up https://www.marketplace.org/2009/03/05/your-money/ask-money/tax-credit-and-tax-rebate from 20-09.

Answer: I thought I knew the difference between a tax credit and a tax rebate, but I wasn't quite sure. So I put your question to the financial advisor and professional polymath Scott Gislason at North Star Resource Group in Minneapolis. He's a lawyer, a CPA (certified public accountant), a CLU (chartered life underwriter) and ChFC (chartered financial consultant).

Here what he says: "There's an often overlooked difference between "tax credits" and "tax rebates". Generally speaking, tax credits only offset tax balances due - meaning if you have low income and owe nothing in tax, you get no benefit from a credit. Whereas, tax rebates are paid to a taxpayer regardless whether a tax is payable. There is an exception to this rule - the earned income tax credit which operates like a rebate."

Really? You didn't read what I wrote (even though you quoted it)? Or are you incapable of comprehending what was said?

 

[cwerdna]

Really? You didn't read what I wrote (even though you quoted it)? Or are you incapable of comprehending what was said?

I read it and comprehended. I stand by what I said (whoops, made a typo) and quoted.

There's is no point in continuing to refer to a Federal tax credit as a rebate. Why would you? Call them by their proper names and by what's recognized by the IRS and the EV/PHEV industry.

A tax credit is a tax credit. A rebate is a rebate.

 

[vex]

Personally the credit is irrelevant because I can't afford a brand new one. However prices are already below $25k used when I shop nationally. The national car dealers can transfer to local so I don't need to deal with tax issues, and shipping it turns out is pretty cheap.

Things are looking pretty good. I might wait until the end of the year to see if more selection is available.

 

[Sean Nelson]

A tax credit is a tax credit. A rebate is a rebate.

I think the (perhaps rather pedantic) difference is that the tax credit comes from the government, not from the company you bought the car from. A rebate normally comes from whoever you paid the money to.

 

[cwerdna]

I think the (perhaps rather pedantic) difference is that the tax credit comes from the government, not from the company you bought the car from. A rebate normally comes from whoever you paid the money to.

Yet in California, we have an actual rebate: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng which seem to be govt funded: https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/about-cvrp. It looks like https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/homepage provides funding for CVRP: https://www.electrive.com/2018/10/27/carb-approves-483-million-budget-for-2018-19/. The funding has run out a bunch of times and people have had to be in the queue until more funds are added.

And, we also have https://www.pge.com/en_US/residenti...es/options/clean-vehicles/electric/clean-fuel-rebate-for-electric-vehicles.page (and others like it: http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/rebates.aspx).
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residenti...ptions/clean-vehicles/electric/clean-fuel-rebate-for-electric-vehicles-faq.page mentions

What is the Low Carbon Fuel Standard?

The Low Carbon Fuel Standard (LCFS) is a State of California program administered by the California Air Resources Board. The Low Carbon Fuel Standard is designed to reduce the carbon intensity of transportation fuels by 10 percent below 2010 levels by 2020 by encouraging adoption of cleaner fuels.
...
What is PG&E’s role in the Low Carbon Fuel Standard?

When PG&E sells electricity for use in electric vehicles or compressed natural gas (CNG) for use in natural gas vehicles, PG&E generates LCFS credits, because these fuels are both cleaner than conventional fuels, like gasoline or diesel. PG&E then sells these LCFS credits to regulated parties that need to meet the compliance target under the LCFS. PG&E returns the revenue from the sale of these credits to its EV customers and CNG customers through the Clean Fuel Rebate.

Anyway, the above are actual rebates and it would be wrong to call them credits or tax credits, since they aren't.

I've never been eligible for CVRP. I did receive 2 clean fuel rebates though: $500 for my Leaf (was the old amount) and $800 (new amount for 2019) for my Bolt.

edit: Found CARB pages on CVRP and LCFS: https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aqip/cvrp.htm and https://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/electricity/utilityrebates.htm.

 

[wrillo]

Personally the credit is irrelevant because I can't afford a brand new one. However prices are already below $25k used when I shop nationally. The national car dealers can transfer to local so I don't need to deal with tax issues, and shipping it turns out is pretty cheap.

Things are looking pretty good. I might wait until the end of the year to see if more selection is available.

Exactly this. Everyone saying you can get a $37,000 car for the price of a used $25,000 car are nuts. I'm on military E5 base pay. I was deployed last year, my taxable income for the year was around 20k. You honestly sound dumb and/or disconnected when you dont make the distinction between a tax credit and rebate.

This is the whole reason the incentive program is backwards and needs to go away. It doesnt make EVs more accessible, it's just another tax loophole for wealthy people to take advantage. Now it's going to effectively punish the industry leaders.

 

[vex]

2 Bolts Premieres just popped up at $22k near me. Going to check them out this week.

 

[vex]

Test drove a 2019 LT. They were asking $31k which is a little high I think. They most definitely changed the seats, just with inside padding. There's a huge lump on the lumbar support now. Bottom is cushier. I don't think it's enough of an upgrade to justify the premium over one for $20kish used.

 

[Lin19687]

I will sell you my used '17 Bolt for $26
lol

 

[California]

I see two 2017's on Craigslist in the SF Bay region under $22,500. 60 ~ 70k miles. I expect as leases expire there will be more.

Search term 'Bolt EV' finds the most.

 

[Packard V8]

I see two 2017's on Craigslist in the SF Bay region under $22,500. 60 ~ 70k miles. I expect as leases expire there will be more.

Yep, I'd really want a used car most likely running 18 hrs a day in city traffic as a leased Uber/Lyft flogger.

jack vines

 

[GJETSON]

On 04/19, I mentioned our local dealer had a 2017 LT with 12K miles for $26K. On 05/05 it was $25K. I just checked and it is now $24K.