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Discussion Starter #1
1) The evidence that when something goes wrong (as it will with any product) the dealerships need to order parts and seem a bit clueless about repairs. This has me most concerned. And given GMs reputation for "quality goes in before the name goes on" :laugh: it seems a realistic concern. If I can't get Toyota reliability at least assure me of quick diagnoses and repairs.

2) The horrendous process of the transaction itself, this would be true for most any vehicle purchase for sure but a factor that has me keeping cars for as long as possible. I have been lied to ("Oh, my manager had forgotten about the $2000 NY rebate you are entitled to"), misled ("they all come with DCFC"), and scammed ("The money factor on the one payment lease is the same as the monthly lease payment").

3) The lack of Level 3 charging in my usual driving circumference (Northern NY, Northern New England). If this is to be an only car, my goal, I need to be able to manage 300-mile road trips, in the winter and know that I can charge quickly en route. If I need to keep a second car for roads trips some of the appeal is reduced. One solution is to rent a car for those trips and at about $220 a week for a rental may not be a bad solution.
 

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Sounds like you should consider a Tesla

1. They are not clueless about EV’s
2. The purchase process is dealer free
3. They have an extensive and reliable L3 charging network

They tick all your boxes.
 

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There are excuses and there are reasons. If avoiding any possible strife is the prime directive, no one would ever buy any motor vehicle, or get married, have children, a career, even a round of golf.

FWIW, I have a friend with an EV. A couple of his friends like driving it so much, they gladly trade the use of their ICEs for his infrequent highway trips.

jack vines
 

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If you lived in a temperate climate, 300 mile ranges can be achieved very commonly, with careful driving technique. In NY State... not so much. I recommend sticking to an ICEV unless you can afford a Tesla or choose to have the Bolt EV be your second car.
 

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Sounds like you should consider a Tesla

1. They are not clueless about EV’s
2. The purchase process is dealer free
3. They have an extensive and reliable L3 charging network

They tick all your boxes.
Yes provided the OP has income at or above the top 5% of Americans. He should definitely head over to the Teslarati forum and forget about discussing it with the paupers on this board.
 

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Sounds like you should consider a Tesla

1. They are not clueless about EV’s
2. The purchase process is dealer free
3. They have an extensive and reliable L3 charging network

They tick all your boxes.
I'll give you #3 . 1 and 2, from what I've read, can be just as worse as any other manufacturer, or multiple times worse.
https://jalopnik.com/teslas-potential-body-shop-backlog-nightmare-1793269803
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/time-for-repairs-have-made-tesla-a-laughing-stock-in-my-family.103011/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/delivery-nightmare.103351/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/delivery-nightmare.87394/#post-2006259

Then there's the whole fact that Teslas costs upwards of $80k, and average 6 figures. Don't even mention the Model 3 for the moment, as no one placing an order now will get one before 2020 likely. If OP is looking at a Bolt, I seriously doubt they are considering a Model S or X.
 

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Sounds like you should consider a Tesla

1. They are not clueless about EV’s
2. The purchase process is dealer free
3. They have an extensive and reliable L3 charging network

They tick all your boxes.
Not sure they really tick the service box.
From his username, it is likely that he is about 4 hours from the nearest service center. While Tesla knows their cars, repair delays are not uncommon, and unlike the Bay area, service centers can be quite a trek in many parts of the country.

Last I read, the Tesla Mobile Service (Ranger) cost $3 a mile (they could have changed this again).
This is one example (from 2016):
Today I got a call from my service ranger about a new policy that there will be a $3/ mile charge for any service done out on the field. The closest service center to my house ( panhandle FL) is New Orleans >250miles. He quoted me it will be $798 dollars just on ranger fee alone to fix the TPM warranty item.
 

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Upstate NY is a level-3 DCFC charging desert. There’s not a single L3 charger on the NY Thruway between Albany and Buffalo.

NY promises to do better, but if I lived in Ithaca I’d pass on buying a Bolt as my only car, especially if I had frequent 300+ mile trips, as the OP indicated.

Yes, for those with very deep pockets a Tesla Model S might be an alternative, but even Tesla superchargers are spread thin upstate. Tesla does have a robust network along the thruway from Albany to Buffalo.

My advice would be to get a reliable hybrid for now, and wait for the NY infrastructure to build-out, or wait for a mythical $35k Model 3, the unicorn of EVs.

By the way, Long Island is home to nearly 8 million people, and there’s only two Tesla supercharger stations, so I guess upstate NY isn’t the only area that needs a more robust charging infrastructure.
 
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Sounds like you should consider a Tesla

1. They are not clueless about EV’s
2. The purchase process is dealer free
3. They have an extensive and reliable L3 charging network

They tick all your boxes.
Yes, he should consider Tesla as should anyone thinking of buying a BEV. You are correct that his concerns may be better met with Tesla, but I'm not so sure that repairs are any quicker at all at Tesla though, but at least they seem to be good about loaner cars and pick ups and drop offs. The main thing the OP has to realize when he, or she considers a Tesla is that they will pay a significant premium for these conveniences and if they have extra money and like the car, why not?
 

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I'd get something with a gas motor in it. I think you are correct in letting factor #3 keep you from buying.

I can't comment on #1 but #2 seems kind of dumb. Yeah it can be horrible, but thats just the way it is regardless of whether its an EV or a Chevy. And there are some good dealers out there.
 

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Repairs for Tesla are very quick and they don't have the distraction of also supporting ICE's - all of their service tech's are EV experienced - also please don't focus on the horror stories - my experience with Tesla service (and my co-workers) is that the service experience and promptness is vastly superior to virtually all other manufactures and certainly better than the average Chevy dealer - also for warranty work Tesla typically waves the ranger distance fees if in fact a service center is too far away - or they will flat bed a loaner to you and take your "broken" car back on the same flatbed…

please don't knock Tesla service until you've tried it - I've had nothing but excellent service and that experience is certainly not a one off based on speaking with other Tesla owners.

as far as affordability well there is always the used market.
 

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A new Bolt is about half the cost of a used Tesla Model S. I went with the Bolt strictly due to the rebates and credit. I would have loved a $35,000 Model 3 as well, but it may be 2021 before I can buy one.


If someone takes 300 mile trips frequently, an EV is probably not the way to go unless you have a Tesla. I am taking a 290 mile (each way) trip and will not even bother trying to take my Bolt. With two young kids, fast charging twice each way will not be a fun thing to do. I will take the SUV just for the convenience of it.


I think the Volt is a great option. Qualifies for federal credit, can get buy with pure EV for small trips, and a much easier maintenance schedule than a typical ICE car. Right now EV's are a high priced car with some limitations that need to be seriously considered. I didn't realize how much cold weather really impacted an EV and I am in a mild climate. 30's at night and warming to low 60's during the day in Central California. You will lose 10% of battery capacity in even mild winters, that is not even taking the power hungry heater into consideration.
 

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Repairs for Tesla are very quick and they don't have the distraction of also supporting ICE's - all of their service tech's are EV experienced - also please don't focus on the horror stories -
Well, it's only fair considering that is what most do with Chevy, focus on the horror stories. In fact, it's likely why the OP put that first in their list. I personally have never let horror stories dissuade me from buying a vehicle. So far I have never regretted that, never had a horror story to tell, even though I have bought new cars from horror story brands. (Dodge, Ford, Pontiac and Chevy) Basically if a person's buying decision hinges on horror stories, then they are boxed into buying either a Toyota, or a Honda and if they are waiting for a decent BEV from either of these companies, they will have to wait a long, long time.
 

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If you can hold off I too feel the Tesla Model 3 would be the better choice. Don't buy the BS that if you reserve one today it will be 2020 before you get it, I reserved a second one in July and am schedule to configure this April for the $35k version. The ramp up is kicking in so I would guess maybe 12-16 months for a new reservation. There is a supercharger scheduled for Ithaca by end of 2018 but that's probably not going to matter as you will most likely have a full charge at home before you leave but there are a growing number in your area. They just opened one in Erwin NY which really helps when traveling west as well as one coming soon in Salamanca. That should get you coast to coast if need be.
https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds/49.38,-66.94,25.82,-124.39,d?search=supercharger,&name=us
The service issue is somewhat valid due to the distance to your nearest service center but the expansion of the mobile service program should alleviate those fears.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20170701/RETAIL05/170709995/tesla-service-mobile-model-3
and those that have used it are very impressed.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/mobile-service-van
 

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If you can hold off I too feel the Tesla Model 3 would be the better choice. Don't buy the BS that if you reserve one today it will be 2020 before you get it, I reserved a second one in July and am schedule to configure this April for the $35k version. The ramp up is kicking in so I would guess maybe 12-16 months for a new reservation. There is a supercharger scheduled for Ithaca by end of 2018 but that's probably not going to matter as you will most likely have a full charge at home before you leave but there are a growing number in your area. They just opened one in Erwin NY which really helps when traveling west as well as one coming soon in Salamanca. That should get you coast to coast if need be.
https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds/49.38,-66.94,25.82,-124.39,d?search=supercharger,&name=us
The service issue is somewhat valid due to the distance to your nearest service center but the expansion of the mobile service program should alleviate those fears.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20170701/RETAIL05/170709995/tesla-service-mobile-model-3
and those that have used it are very impressed.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/mobile-service-van

I don't believe that it is BS that to get the 35 K version you will have to wait until 2020 if you put your reservation in today. I hope I am wrong, but I think Tesla will encounter many issues that will even cause your April configuration to be delayed a year.
First of all, many reservation holders are passing right now because they either want the AWD or the $35 K smaller battery option. This will lead to a higher demand of these vehicles. If you want the RWD, high capacity $50,000 model, you might be able to get it sooner than you think. However, the more desirable models will take much longer to ramp up in production to satisfy demand IMO.
Tesla says 12-16 months on their website, but a Tesla deadline is worse than my wife saying she will be ready in 5 more minutes. Tesla has never made a high production car, this lack of experience will cause huge hiccups. There is a reason why GM was able to build an affordable long range EV and put it out a year before Tesla. GM knows how to produce cars in quantity and stay true to deadlines.
Tesla is not a car company, they are a technology company. That want their hands in almost every aspect in the car. They want to make the batteries, code autonomous driving, create the cpu's for the cars, create the energy you use for the car, etc... There is a reason I bought a Bolt, the reason I did is I went to a dealership, drove it, and brought it home an hour later.
 

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If you can hold off I too feel the Tesla Model 3 would be the better choice. Don't buy the BS that if you reserve one today it will be 2020 before you get it, I reserved a second one in July and am schedule to configure this April for the $35k version. The ramp up is kicking in so I would guess maybe 12-16 months for a new reservation. There is a supercharger scheduled for Ithaca by end of 2018 but that's probably not going to matter as you will most likely have a full charge at home before you leave but there are a growing number in your area. They just opened one in Erwin NY which really helps when traveling west as well as one coming soon in Salamanca. That should get you coast to coast if need be.
https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds/49.38,-66.94,25.82,-124.39,d?search=supercharger,&name=us
The service issue is somewhat valid due to the distance to your nearest service center but the expansion of the mobile service program should alleviate those fears.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20170701/RETAIL05/170709995/tesla-service-mobile-model-3
and those that have used it are very impressed.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/mobile-service-van
There are nearly a half million reservations for the Model 3. Unless a very large number of those reservations are refunded it’s unlikely that a reservation made today will be delivered in early 2019. To date, Tesla has missed every promised production estimate, and there’s little evidence that things are improving.

Maybe Tesla will surprise everyone with robust production quantities soon, but only the true believers lend any credence to Elon’s promises, which are as changeable as the weather.
 
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There are nearly a half million reservations for the Model 3. Unless a very large number of those reservations are refunded it’s unlikely that a reservation made today will be delivered in early 2019. To date, Tesla has missed every promised production estimate, and there’s little evidence that things are improving.

Maybe Tesla will surprise everyone with robust production quantities soon, but only the true believers lend any credence to Elon’s promises, which are as changeable as the weather.
Not quite true
Not quite true;
https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/31/11335272/tesla-model-3-announced-price-release-date-specs-preorder
We can speculate whether releasing the model 3, 6 months earlier than the original projection is a sign of things to come. Time will tell. GM certainly can build circles around Tesla when it comes to quantity, keep in mind though that they had/have factories in place for years prior whereas Tesla was tooling from the ground up.
It's actually quite impressive that a tech company is able to produce a vehicle that has all of Detroit, Japan, and Germany shell shocked. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at BMW or GM's board room on 4/1/16. Granted, even if they get on track for 5k/week by Spring/18 and 10k/ by fall/18, it will be a solid year to complete all the reservations. All it takes is one supplier to mess up which is why Tesla vertically integrates their company as mentioned earlier. They did this with the falcon wing door by tackling it internally. They bought Grohmann to maintain control of a critical cog in production. But they are still a young company with a lot to learn so as I said, time will tell if they can meet these aggressive projections.
 

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Robotics and fixed automation have been prevalent in the auto industry for at least the last 40 years. How is it that Tesla can't seem to get a handle on this ?
 

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Not quite true
Not quite true;
https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/31/11335272/tesla-model-3-announced-price-release-date-specs-preorder
We can speculate whether releasing the model 3, 6 months earlier than the original projection is a sign of things to come. Time will tell. GM certainly can build circles around Tesla when it comes to quantity, keep in mind though that they had/have factories in place for years prior whereas Tesla was tooling from the ground up.
It's actually quite impressive that a tech company is able to produce a vehicle that has all of Detroit, Japan, and Germany shell shocked. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at BMW or GM's board room on 4/1/16. Granted, even if they get on track for 5k/week by Spring/18 and 10k/ by fall/18, it will be a solid year to complete all the reservations. All it takes is one supplier to mess up which is why Tesla vertically integrates their company as mentioned earlier. They did this with the falcon wing door by tackling it internally. They bought Grohmann to maintain control of a critical cog in production. But they are still a young company with a lot to learn so as I said, time will tell if they can meet these aggressive projections.
Not sure what the link to an 03/2016 article is for. Tesla showed off a couple of dozen hand-built models over the summer, and has been hand-building the Model 3 ever since. I guess that’s technically “production”, since those cars were produced.

Musk promised a production rate of 5k Model 3 per week by Q4 2017, which has been pushed back to “late” Q1 2018. No promise has been made for a further production ramp-up to the eventual goal of 10k per week.

If Tesla can maintain 5k per week in 2018 they’ll be half way through the existing orders by the end of 2018. Tesla has promised a production estimate update in early January. Maybe most of the production issues are nearly solved, maybe not, I guess we’ll know in January.

I really do hope Tesla can meet and exceed their production estimates, but I still think it’s a leap of faith to foresee getting through all the pre-orders in the next year and a half. If Musk pulls that off it will be a game changer for the entire auto industry. If.
 

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Not sure what the link to an 03/2016 article is for.

Musk promised a production rate of 5k Model 3 per week by Q4 2017, which has been pushed back to “late” Q1 2018. No promise has been made for a further production ramp-up to the eventual goal of 10k per week.

If Tesla can maintain 5k per week in 2018 they’ll be half way through the existing orders by the end of 2018. Tesla has promised a production estimate update in early January. Maybe most of the production issues are nearly solved, maybe not, I guess we’ll know in January.

I really do hope Tesla can meet and exceed their production estimates, but I still think it’s a leap of faith to foresee getting through all the pre-orders in the next year and a half. If Musk pulls that off it will be a game changer for the entire auto industry. If.
That link was the original estimate of when the model 3 would be in production which was end of 2017. The release event was in July of 2017. I believe they also are ahead of schedule for the Model S production original estimates which I think were 100k in 7 years based on R&D ROI and they reached it in 4 years.
Another point to be made if you are planning to use this EV for long distance is the future proofing of the model 3 vs others in regards to charging speed. The upcoming supercharger v3 would allow the model 3 to charge at the peak amperage of 525. Page 9
https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/datafiles/FOI_HTSLV00.0L13_APPIPT1.PDF
 
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