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Discussion Starter #1
i'm sure the addition of battery conditioning and management was considered important,otherwise GM wouldn't have included it in the bolt. my question is, why have other manufacturers NOT included it? first, it costs more to include it in the bolt, and it adds weight. considering Chevy doen'st include a spare tire, i'm sure weight it important. which begs the question, how does Nissan and I think Kia not include it in their EV's?

Steve
Blue Point
 

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My guess is the trade-off between weight, complexity, cost, and range. Chevy is betting that range trumps cost. Now that the 150 mile (air cooled) Leaf is out (for less $$) we will see if they guessed right. Most of us (Bolt owners) want the longer range, but there will be many people buying the Leaf who feel that the 150 mile range meets all their needs. Maybe for them, 99% of their driving is in this range. Will the number of CHAdeMO stations (higher than CCS DCFC) mean they are willing to use the Leaf (charging more often, but more conveniently) for that 1% of their driving? We drive further and charge less often, but have a harder time finding a DCFC. Time will tell!
 

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it's about battery longevity - I"m not clear as to if Nissan/Kia offer a 8 year, 100,000 mile battery warranty…

Chevy and Tesla do - and they both offer extensive battery warranties

it turns out you can pretty run a LiOn battery under any thermal conditions you like - it will charge/discharge just fine (to a point) - but if you run the battery (charge/discharge) it outside it's comfort zone for temperature you damage the battery and it won't charge quite as well on the next cycle - do this often enough and you soon are at 50% of original capacity or worse…

thermal management increases LiOn battery longevity and maintains it's capacity.
 

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Kia's warranty - 100,000 miles - impressive

Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery Capacity Coverage
The Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery (“EV Battery”) Capacity warranty coverage period is 10 years or 100,000 miles from the Date of First Service, whichever comes first, for capacity loss below 70% of the original battery capacity. This warranty covers repairs needed to return battery capacity to 70% of original battery capacity. If possible, the EV battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original EV Battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary, the EV Battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery. Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your Lithium-Ion Battery to an “as new” condition with the original 100% battery capacity. However, it will provide the vehicle with an EV Battery capacity of
New Vehicle Limited Warranty
at least 70% of the original battery capacity. This Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage is subject to the exclusions listed under the section “What is Not Covered.”
 

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mmm - lots of wiggle room…what's not covered

"EV System and Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery" damage or failures resulting from or caused by :
- Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above
122F (50C) for over 24 hours.
- Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -22F
(-30C) for over seven days.
- Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the
Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery reaches a zero or
near zero state of charge.
- Physically damaging or intentionally attempting to
reduce the life of the Lithium-Ion Polymer
Battery.
- Exposing the Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery to
contact with a direct flame.
- Immersing any portion of the Lithium-Ion
Polymer Battery in water or fluids.
- Opening the Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery
enclosure or having the Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery serviced by someone other than a Kia certified EV technician.
- Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures.
8
New Vehicle Limited Warranty
- Use of incompatible charging devices.
- Incidental or consequential damage caused by the
failure to repair an existing problem.
 

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All manufacturers have engineered thermal management for their batteries and associated electrical systems.

The Leaf actively manages battery temperature by blowing cabin air across the pack. Since batteries are happiest around temperatures that humans are happiest, this should work out well. Some extremely hot locations have reported that the thermal management in the Leaf is inadequate, but this is not the case with most locations.

All thermal management schemes are ultimately air cooled.

The fact that EVs (besides Tesla) are worth roughly 1/3 the price 3-4 years old suggests they will be worth very little in 10 years when the warranties expire.

I'm not saying Nissan has engineered the correct thermal management solution, but I understand their strategy to reduce costs.
 

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All thermal management schemes are ultimately air cooled.
"Ultimately" is true enough, but there's a night-and-day difference between blowing hot air across an overheated battery vs. circulating A/C-cooled glycol through it, even if the latter's A/C condenser radiator is "air cooled".
 

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Discussion Starter #8
this is an important concept, and I'm glad I asked. now, i am pretty certain i would only lease a Leaf, rather than chance a significant battery loss over the life of the car if it was purchased. I'm guessing Nissan is betting the average buyer won't bother worrying about it, as i'm sure the nissan salesman will tell prospective buyers that nissan improved the battery mgmt in the 30kWh leaf. bottom line, this will almost certainly mean i will NOT buy the new leaf, since the bolt should prove much more reliable and its battery and its 8 year warranty insuring it degrade little over this time span.
 

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The Leaf actively manages battery temperature by blowing cabin air across the pack.
I'm not saying Nissan has engineered the correct thermal management solution, but I understand their strategy to reduce costs.
Nope.
The Nissan cooling is completely passive. No fans. No air movement other than from the car moving, whatever breeze there is, or convection currents from the hot battery.
Owners in hot climates have been known to routinely run it through the car wash before or after a QC session to help control pack temps.

Passively Cooled EV's:
Nissan LEAF. The 2018 LEAF has "25% better thermal management". But still no fans or anything to promote air movement.
VW e-Golf

Active Air (fans):
The Kia Soul EV uses fans to move conditioned air from the cabin over the battery. If you're hot and have the A/C on, the battery also gets a bit of a cool breeze.

Liquid cooled EV's:
BMW i3
Chevy Bolt (and Spark EV when they were producing it)
Fiat 500e
Ford Focus Electric
Honda Clarity Electric
Hyundai IONIQ Electric
Mercedes B250e (B-Class ED)
smart fortwo electric
Tesla (all)
 

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Nope.
Liquid cooled EV's:
BMW i3
Chevy Bolt (and Spark EV when they were producing it)
Fiat 500e
Ford Focus Electric
Honda Clarity Electric
Hyundai IONIQ Electric
Mercedes B250e (B-Class ED)
smart fortwo electric
Tesla (all)
arguably the two best in this list are the Bolt and Tesla - both of which are recognized for their class leading battery tech…in particular their battery management software/thermals.
 

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"Ultimately" is true enough, but there's a night-and-day difference between blowing hot air across an overheated battery vs. circulating A/C-cooled glycol through it, even if the latter's A/C condenser radiator is "air cooled".
Agree 100%. The "Ultimately air cooled" comment is, at best, ingenuous. And as others state here, I believe that Nissan's battery cooling is still completely passive, without even a fan to create a hot breeze on a hot day.
 

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mmm - lots of wiggle room…what's not covered

"EV System and Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery" damage or failures resulting from or caused by :
- Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above
122F (50C) for over 24 hours.
- Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -22F
(-30C) for over seven days.
- Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the
Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery reaches a zero or
near zero state of charge.
- Physically damaging or intentionally attempting to
reduce the life of the Lithium-Ion Polymer
Battery.
- Exposing the Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery to
contact with a direct flame.
- Immersing any portion of the Lithium-Ion
Polymer Battery in water or fluids.
- Opening the Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery
enclosure or having the Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery serviced by someone other than a Kia certified EV technician.
- Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures.
8
New Vehicle Limited Warranty
- Use of incompatible charging devices.
- Incidental or consequential damage caused by the
failure to repair an existing problem.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.




Seriously though, how could anyone expect to win a warranty claim, with all of those exclusions?

"We believe, that on February 17th 2017, you used an improper charging procedure. Claim denied."
 

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I'm sure to get a heck of a deal on a used Leaf in about a year. Do you think a 2013 model will hit $5k by this time next year?

The Nissan cooling is completely passive. No fans.
Thanks for pointing that out. In my brief Google search, everything I read said there was a dedicated battery fan. Even my 3.2 kWh Prius battery has 2 fans for thermal management, which you can hear running when the car is charging.

how could anyone expect to win a warranty claim, with all of those exclusions?

"We believe, that on February 17th 2017, you used an improper charging procedure. Claim denied."
Which of those exclusions do you find to be unreasonable? The manufacturer would need to provide evidence that someone abused the battery to deny a claim.

The Leaf battery is warrantied for 8 years and 100k miles. I expect most cars will make it that far (and substantially further) without a battery failure.

Perhaps Nissan figured a battery that lasts a decade is good enough, and by that time the owner would either want a new vehicle, or perhaps to replace the old technology battery with whatever is better and cheaper.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
I'm sure to get a heck of a deal on a used Leaf in about a year. Do you think a 2013 model will hit $5k by this time next year?



Thanks for pointing that out. In my brief Google search, everything I read said there was a dedicated battery fan. Even my 3.2 kWh Prius battery has 2 fans for thermal management, which you can hear running when the car is charging.



Which of those exclusions do you find to be unreasonable? The manufacturer would need to provide evidence that someone abused the battery to deny a claim.

The Leaf battery is warrantied for 8 years and 100k miles. I expect most cars will make it that far (and substantially further) without a battery failure.

Perhaps Nissan figured a battery that lasts a decade is good enough, and by that time the owner would either want a new vehicle, or perhaps to replace the old technology battery with whatever is better and cheaper.
I'm wondering if any manufacturer would make it financially beneficial to have a customer of a 10 year old EV be able to swap out to a new or new tech battery 10 years down the road. that would cannibalize new car sales. either way, we're taking a risk buying an EV now, since the tech has advanced quickly in the last few years based on the number of EV's being sold now.
for me, the current range of the Bolt is very reasonable, my only hope for the future would be to have faster DC charging, and more of those DC stations. currently the real deal breaker for most first time EV buyers is most likely the time to charge when away from home. considering the long range of the bolt, that might not be an issue unless attempting a long trip.
 

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...for me, the current range of the Bolt is very reasonable, my only hope for the future would be to have faster DC charging, and more of those DC stations. currently the real deal breaker for most first time EV buyers is most likely the time to charge when away from home. considering the long range of the bolt, that might not be an issue unless attempting a long trip.
I'm with dubluv, particularly regarding those wanting to own just one car. I purchased the Bolt because even though technology will improve greatly in the near future, the Bolt suits my expected needs for the next 10 years, vis-a-vis charge time, range, etc.
 

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arguably the two best in this list are the Bolt and Tesla - both of which are recognized for their class leading battery tech…in particular their battery management software/thermals.
Yeah and GM certainly impressed me because all the serious reviews of these systems I have read rank the Bolts thermal management system as equal too or better than the what Tesla's have. Frankly I was not expecting that.
 

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My current Ford C-Max Energi PHEV is similar to the Kia Soul, it draws air from the passenger cabin, which (presumably) will have AC to keep the passengers comfortable. I think it's a reasonable compromise in design, but I have had rare occasions when the car forces the engine on because the batteries are too heat-soaked for high output. Not good for a pure EV for that reason.

Good list, though.

Nope.
The Nissan cooling is completely passive. No fans. No air movement other than from the car moving, whatever breeze there is, or convection currents from the hot battery.
Owners in hot climates have been known to routinely run it through the car wash before or after a QC session to help control pack temps.

Passively Cooled EV's:
Nissan LEAF. The 2018 LEAF has "25% better thermal management". But still no fans or anything to promote air movement.
VW e-Golf

Active Air (fans):
The Kia Soul EV uses fans to move conditioned air from the cabin over the battery. If you're hot and have the A/C on, the battery also gets a bit of a cool breeze.

Liquid cooled EV's:
BMW i3
Chevy Bolt (and Spark EV when they were producing it)
Fiat 500e
Ford Focus Electric
Honda Clarity Electric
Hyundai IONIQ Electric
Mercedes B250e (B-Class ED)
smart fortwo electric
Tesla (all)
 

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My current Ford C-Max Energi PHEV is similar to the Kia Soul, it draws air from the passenger cabin, which (presumably) will have AC to keep the passengers comfortable. I think it's a reasonable compromise in design, but I have had rare occasions when the car forces the engine on because the batteries are too heat-soaked for high output. Not good for a pure EV for that reason.
The Prius is even stranger. The engine will come on after lots of sustained regen going down a hill. I can see no reason why lots of regen or even heat buildup would necessitate the engine turning on, but that's how it works.
 

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One comment re: battery warranties.
The 8yr/100K mile warranty is the minimum auto makers can offer as the traction battery is considered part of the emissions system.

Note that that warranty only covers failure, and not degradation. Manufacturers differ on if and how much degradation they warrant.
Put this together a while ago, but the data should still be good.

 

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Discussion Starter #20
I'm with dubluv, particularly regarding those wanting to own just one car. I purchased the Bolt because even though technology will improve greatly in the near future, the Bolt suits my expected needs for the next 10 years, vis-a-vis charge time, range, etc.
gern, you're braver than me. this EV would be my second car, as we already have a Kia Soul that my wife and i both like very much. however, I still want to have that ability to use the bolt for all our around town driving, and short trips, and at the same time keep from adding mileage to teh kia. In this way, we can actually extend the life of the Kia since we won't be using it much. it will also keep from getting ripped off in any trade, since dealers want to give you next to nothing for your trade.
 
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