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You're still not addressing why you need to leave with just over half a battery. Just so a majority of the charging is done at a higher cost? Anyway, yes, that would increase cost and time.

As for the Hyundai Accent, you're talking about a significantly smaller car. The trunk area is over 3 cu/ft smaller than the Bolt EV's, and the Accent has far, far less capacity with the seats down.
You need to charge 4 times on the road. Starting with 100% will knock it down to 3, and shorten the traveling time some, and you pay less. What it is 30kwh at $0.19 or $0.31. $3.60 difference. Remember I save $12 by driving slower?

Time saving is one charge session of 30 min. The whole trip is still over 9 hours, versus less than 8 in a gas car.

Accent is perfectly fine for me. I happily drove a spark EV for 3 years. An accent is an upgrade.

-TL

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It doesn't change energy used. It affects the traveling time somewhat and the money you pay for electricity.
But you keep going on about cost and time on the road, not energy used. So you're changing the data to make it easier, but it changes the outcomes that you seem to deem most important.

Don't try to make the calculations easier, try to make them more accurate.
 

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Two years ago we did a road trip to Rochester, NY. This was before EA on the east coast. None of the rental places had a hybrid, or even a compact We ended up with a Nissan Altima, from Enterprise rental, for $248.68 total.

We drove up Rt 15, from central Virginia to Rochester, New York...just under 500 miles, with four stops, only one to "charge." We bought, and used 25 gallons of regular gas total, at ~$2.60 per gallon average. For the entire trip, we averaged 49 mph, and 40 mpg, $0.065 per mile. I never would have believed that land yacht was that efficient.

On the way back we pulled into a Dunkin Donuts for breakfast, and damned if it wasn't a Tesla Supercharger stop!

View attachment 31007

We could have easily done this trip with a Model 3, as there are many Superchargers along the route.

Last year, thanks to EA, we felt comfortable enough to attempt the same trip, with a side trip to Ithaca on the way back. The non-Tesla DC charging infrastructure was still a joke, but at least now the trip is doable...with luck.

1153.3 miles, 4.5 mi/kWh average, 251 kWh total.
Is that the one in Painted Post/Erwin NY? It's never ICEd like that when I stop there. Two years ago though it was fairly new so maybe took the locals some getting used to.
 

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It just make the calculation easier. It doesn't change energy used. It affects the traveling time somewhat and the money you pay for electricity.

Every analysis is based upon assumptions. If I try to manufacture a case, like I was accused of, I could have assumed I live in an apartment with no home charging available.

-TL

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Yes, but you stated none of that up front. If you can't charge at home, that's fine, but you have to be able to charge somewhere. If you're 100% reliant on the public charging infrastructure, then yes, your model works fine. However, again, you need to state that upfront (i.e., owning an EV is more expensive and time consuming than an ICE car if you don't have charging at home or work).

You need to charge 4 times on the road. Starting with 100% will knock it down to 3, and shorten the traveling time some, and you pay less. What it is 30kwh at $0.19 or $0.31. $3.60 difference. Remember I save $12 by driving slower?

Accent is perfectly fine for me. I happily drove a spark EV for 3 years. An accent is an upgrade.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
I thought we established that you saved ~$6.50 by driving 10 mph slower. Either way, I wouldn't discount the difference that starting with 100% makes. That's more than 30 minutes of time savings and nearly $5.00 in cost savings (again, the national average electricity rate is 13 cents per kWh, not 19 cents).

Also, if you then want to factor in driving speed, that also changes both the importance of starting with a full battery and the number of stops you make overall. If my typical driving speed was 60 to 65 mph, I could do my regular 500-mile trip with only two charging stops. The first stop wouldn't need to happen until nearly 220 miles in (versus the more typical 180 to 200 miles at faster driving speeds), and two charging stops up to ~65% battery would get me to my destination. I'd also only need to add about 70 kWh on public chargers, or about $22 worth.
 

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But you keep going on about cost and time on the road, not energy used. So you're changing the data to make it easier, but it changes the outcomes that you seem to deem most important.

Don't try to make the calculations easier, try to make them more accurate.
$3.60 and 30min less, best scenario. Still not much cheaper and way longer than a gas car of my choosing.

You are free to make it more accurate for your own. I don't know you, and I have no way to know what assumptions would please you.

You know I really live in an apartment with no home charging available. 55% is usually what I have on the battery.

-TL

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Yes, but you stated none of that up front. If you can't charge at home, that's fine, but you have to be able to charge somewhere. If you're 100% reliant on the public charging infrastructure, then yes, your model works fine. However, again, you need to state that upfront (i.e., owning an EV is more expensive and time consuming than an ICE car if you don't have charging at home or work).



I thought we established that you saved ~$6.50 by driving 10 mph slower. Either way, I wouldn't discount the difference that starting with 100% makes. That's more than 30 minutes of time savings and nearly $5.00 in cost savings (again, the national average electricity rate is 13 cents per kWh, not 19 cents).

Also, if you then want to factor in driving speed, that also changes both the importance of starting with a full battery and the number of stops you make overall. If my typical driving speed was 60 to 65 mph, I could do my regular 500-mile trip with only two charging stops. The first stop wouldn't need to happen until nearly 220 miles in (versus the more typical 180 to 200 miles at faster driving speeds), and two charging stops up to ~65% battery would get me to my destination. I'd also only need to add about 70 kWh on public chargers, or about $22 worth.
$0.19 per kwh where I live, that is during super off-peak.

Energy difference between 65mph and 75mph is 41 kwh. And that has to be from dcfc. $12 it is.

Any way. I (not anybody else) can't arrive early by driving slower, unless I charge above 55% on the road. 65mph is my (not yours) optimum speed. It is best (for me not you) to not charge above 55% on a trip if there are enough charging stations on the route. I (not anybody else) probably will drive a gas car for road trip if time is important. I will tell my brother, who lives in an apartment for real, to forget EV. He will end up spending more money to buy a pain in his rear end.

-TL

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I'm not sure why. Keep in mind that Tesla (the #1 U.S. automaker) actively encourages their EV owners to arrive at charging locations with only about 15 miles of range left (~5% battery).
By adjusting my speed, I was able to run the battery down to get the "you need to charge" warning just a few miles before all my charges. Was really easy to do. Even timed it once to get a low propulsion warning as I was parking at a EA station. Was kinda weird practically hypermilling the first leg and driving 80 mph on the second leg.
 

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When DCFC chargers are available everywhere and all the time I'll drive to 5% battery. Actually not. Sometimes stuff happens. I was once driving south on I-35 through OK (Volt at that time) when a landslide closed the Interstate. Multihour detour (they routed over a 2 lane bridge under construction so it was 1 lane with alternating one way traffic). Terrible time to have planned out a get there by the skin of your teeth refueling stop.
 

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When DCFC chargers are available everywhere and all the time I'll drive to 5% battery. Actually not. Sometimes stuff happens. I was once driving south on I-35 through OK (Volt at that time) when a landslide closed the Interstate. Multihour detour (they routed over a 2 lane bridge under construction so it was 1 lane with alternating one way traffic). Terrible time to have planned out a get there by the skin of your teeth refueling stop.
Exactly. In my experience, the worst backups occur in winter. Often tractor-trailers T-bone on black ice, blocking the entire interstate for hours. I would hate to have to turn off my heat when it's sub-zero out because otherwise I won't make it. In fact, letting the car cold soak for hours will lose all of the precious heat in the battery and drive system, making it less efficient. Even if you turn off the car, you may find that when you turn it back on, you can no longer make it to the charger. And now you need a tow truck to add to the existing mayhem.
 

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When DCFC chargers are available everywhere and all the time I'll drive to 5% battery. Actually not. Sometimes stuff happens. I was once driving south on I-35 through OK (Volt at that time) when a landslide closed the Interstate. Multihour detour (they routed over a 2 lane bridge under construction so it was 1 lane with alternating one way traffic). Terrible time to have planned out a get there by the skin of your teeth refueling stop.
Last year, when the Grapevine was closed due to a sudden snowstorm, a number of ICE vehicles ran out of gas idling while stuck, not moving on the freeway. I've seen plenty of ICE owners walking several miles to a gas station with gas can in hand. Even with "ubiquitous" refueling infrastructure, people run out of fuel. That's what a AAA card and tow truck are for.

I agree that it's probably not a good idea to aim for 5% upon arrival. I also think that's silly, and I'm one of the people who often arrives with <5% battery. However, that typically happens after some of my built-in buffer was eaten away by outside factors. Ideally, we should be at a point with our infrastructure (and EV capabilities) where we can start looking for charging stations when we cross below 25% battery, and that 25% battery needs to be much closer to 100 miles than the 50 miles it currently represents in the Bolt EV.
 

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Ideally, we should be at a point with our infrastructure (and EV capabilities) where we can start looking for charging stations when we cross below 25% battery, and that 25% battery needs to be much closer to 100 miles than the 50 miles it currently represents in the Bolt EV.
In many places that I drive, we are already nearing that point with infrastructure. I could drive around the northeast and only start worrying about charging when I have 100 miles of range remaining. The trouble is that to get to that point with current battery technology is very expensive (see also the starting price of a 400-mile Model S or upcoming Hummer/Lyriq EVs).

So in your view, the problem isn't infrastructure as much as it is cost of batteries.
 

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In many places that I drive, we are already nearing that point with infrastructure. I could drive around the northeast and only start worrying about charging when I have 100 miles of range remaining. The trouble is that to get to that point with current battery technology is very expensive (see also the starting price of a 400-mile Model S or upcoming Hummer/Lyriq EVs).

So in your view, the problem isn't infrastructure as much as it is cost of batteries.
In a manner of speaking, yes. Or another way to say it is that improving batteries and range (lowering cost and increasing energy density) are as important as public charging infrastructure.

While the GMC Hummer EV is a good example of how much it would take to get 400 miles in a relatively inefficient vehicle, the Model S is (at least on paper) a fairly efficient car. Why it still starts at $69,420 is a mystery to me, but let's just assume that 4 mi/kWh is a reasonable expectation, even for a budget EV platform. That means a 400-mile EV would require a ~100 kWh pack. With both GM and Tesla claiming to be reaching or besting the $100 per kWh price point, that makes it a $10,000 or less battery cost at the cell level. And that means it should be possible to build a 400-mile EV with a battery pack that costs roughly the same as the original 60 kWh pack in the Chevy Bolt EV.

Essentially, at this point, it should be possible to build and sell a 400-mile EV for less than $40,000.
 

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I found the Chevrolet app's energy assist very helpful. Except the first time I tried to use it, refused to load because it wanted me to read the EULA. But once I figured it out, it would predict real-time the destination battery level. I'd adjust my car's speed to target 10%. Except my last EA location in Bristow OK wasn't in their database.
 

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I found the Chevrolet app's energy assist very helpful. Except the first time I tried to use it, refused to load because it wanted me to read the EULA. But once I figured it out, it would predict real-time the destination battery level. I'd adjust my car's speed to target 10%. Except my last EA location in Bristow OK wasn't in their database.
The biggest issues I've had testing out Energy Assist is that it doesn't always have recently opened sites, and it really doesn't like adjusting route plans on the fly. Before this pandemic, when I was making a lot more long trips, I intended to track Energy Assist versus what my actual route was, but because I don't actually plan my trips, it was hard to provide a comparison. The most planning I do is to identify chargers that I might want to check out along the way, and because those are new chargers, their omission from Energy Assist made the route "plans" even more difficult to compare.
 

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Real world case of the only situation in which "slower is faster"... any time charging above 80% can be avoided by slowing down a bit.

Driving yesterday through Tennessee. I put head wind, cold weather and high speed (113% of speed limit) into ABRP and let her rip. For the leg from Nashville TN to Jackson TN it said I needed to charge up to 96%. Looking at my consumption (weather had improved from previous day when I planned trip), I concluded that by slowing down to the speed limit it would take me an extra 15 min of driving time. By lowering my charge goal from 96% to 80% I saved myself 45 min of charging. A net gain of 30 min. Now if the weather had not improved, I may have needed to slow down even more to avoid going over 80% charge on that leg of the trip, it would still have been a net gain if I was doing 10 mph under the speed limit, but I avoid that if at all possible so I probably would have compromised at 85% and the speed limit rather than doing 80% and below the speed limit even if the actual time gain would be better by going slower. As is, I split my speed between "at the limit" and "113% of the limit" on that leg due to the weather improvements, so my net time improvement was closer to 35 or 40 min.

Keith

PS: 113% of the speed limit is 9 mph over if the speed limit is 70 mph... my standard road trip speed so 113% is what I use in ABRP
 

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The biggest issues I've had testing out Energy Assist is that it doesn't always have recently opened sites, and it really doesn't like adjusting route plans on the fly. Before this pandemic, when I was making a lot more long trips, I intended to track Energy Assist versus what my actual route was, but because I don't actually plan my trips, it was hard to provide a comparison. The most planning I do is to identify chargers that I might want to check out along the way, and because those are new chargers, their omission from Energy Assist made the route "plans" even more difficult to compare.
Well, I got more stick time with Energy Assist. Got totally frustrated trying to find chargers with it. I didn't use it to plan a trip, but only entered in my next destination city while I was finishing up charging. It would start showing me predicted arrival state of charge. When it would show about 20% at my destination I would unplug and start driving. Then I would watch it as I drove to maintain at least above 10%.
 
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