[davioh2001]

The post was originally to be titled
Why aren't we seeing more Charge point stations...
they mentioned in several articles last year 2+ millions stations
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/chargepoint-expansion-2-million-chargers-2025/
Also, at my work they are sinking in 20 Million for a parking garage. I hope my employer is budgeting for having regular AC outlets, + a few level 2s and a few level 3's.
I did a quick google search and was fairly shocked (no pun intended) that these chargepoint stations are around $7k USD for a level 2 where the bosch 25 KW DCFC is down to $9k. I would have thought the Chargepoints level 2's would have gone for not more than $2k.
https://webosolar.com/store/en/ev-c...8oSYL6QAbvxzZB5fJ8ocBSn7oxAn-IThoCNwQQAvD_BwE

[ame]https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-25kW-DC-Fast-Charger/dp/B074Z9SG2J/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ZZN17P7REF66&keywords=bosch+25kw+dc+fast+charger&qid=1563724749&s=gateway&sprefix=bosch+25kw+d%2Caps%2C274&sr=8-1[/ame]

 

[madmike]

I think what you are asking is why are commercial stations so much more expensive then home stations? They look a lot more complicated to me, but I take your point that it would be nice if they were cheaper. I'd love to know what electrify America pays for a station...serious infrastructure!

 

[JD4JC]

I think the ChargePoint is not a DCFC, but is gizzied up standard Level 2 intended for commercial use (7.2kW output with 240VAC @ 30A), whereas the Bosch is a DCFC with a 25 kW output. However, it appears to take a 165A AC input!

 

[GregBrew]

I think the ChargePoint is not a DCFC, but is gizzied up standard Level 2 intended for commercial use (7.2kW output with 240VAC @ 30A), whereas the Bosch is a DCFC with a 25 kW output. However, it appears to take a 165A AC input!

Yup. When I upgraded my main panel from 100A to 200A, SCE had to send somebody out to physically measure my (aluminum!) feed cables. Fortunately, they were (barely) adequate for 200A. I can't imagine what a 400A feed upgrade would cost me.

 

[tfay412]

That price includes a 4G connection to the station, live support, billing, etc. This is not something a residential customer has to deal with.

 

[KeithMoon]

are sinking in 20 Million for a parking garage. I hope my employer is budgeting for having regular AC outlets, + a few level 2s and a few level 3's.

Level 3's make no sense for an employee parking lot. The most cost effective solution for an employer is simply to wire in NEMA 6-20Rs which gives the employee 10 miles per hour using their own EVSE and requiring essentially zero maintainence by the employer. They can also afford to wire a large number of spots which means that the employees can stay plugged in all day and they don't need to lose employee productivity as they play musical cars.

 

[hatchy]

Commercial accounts are sometimes charged primarily by peak useage. At least I know one of mine is. Your country/state/city may vary. You can actually use less kwh but pay more because of a spike, than another guy next door who uses way more kwh but has a steadier load. That to me, would be HUGE dissuasion to putting in fast chargers at a business.

 

[ga2500ev]

Level 3's make no sense for an employee parking lot.

I'm not sure this is a universal statement. Many discussions on employee charging is based on problems with insufficient charging spaces and having to rotate cars in and out of those spaces to charge. It's much more difficult when the timing for a decent charge is on the order of several hours.

There's also a flexibility issue too. I know the presumption is that someone is going to come into work, be there for several hours, then leave. But lots of jobs are more sporadic than that, such as sales and remote technician jobs. Folks may only be in the office a 1/2 hour to an hour at a time before having to head back out.

I'm going into my third year now of asking why folks seem to be so inflexible with charging, especially in public charging situations. There are continual calls that every space should be wired for L2. Or that every charging station should be an ultra fast travel charger. That DCFC should never be installed at home, or a workplace, condo site, grocery store, or park.

Public charging should always have options for people to choose. Each and every EV that drives up to a public charging station has a different situation from the last EV that pulled up, and the next EV that will pull up. The state of charge, charging speed, amount of time available, and the amount of charge needed are all unknown. By forcing a particular modality of charging into that space, by definition some subset of potential users will be locked out because that modality doesn't fit their circumstance. It'll either be too short a time to get a useful charge, or too expensive because ultra fast charging is forced upon them, or the annoyance of having to check on their EV for hours at a time.

So why not just make everything reasonable available and let people choose with their time and their dollars? If someone needs a fast charge, have a fast charger. Or if someone has time to charge slowly, then have L2 (or even L1) available? People can better manage their situations when they have choices.

It's one of the reasons I advocate for medium speed DCFC for local public charging. Charging stations between 25 and 50 kW represents a balance between charging speed and cost that can benefit folks with limited time, limited money, or in need of a decent charge. For local use one typically doesn't need 250 miles of range recharge. So even a partial charge can be of use. Those power rates have limited, or no, demand charges. Also many of those chargers can be installed with the same electrical infrastructure as the L2 stations. Also medium speed stations don't cost $50,000 at the low end. As pointed out by the OP Bosch 25kW stations are in the same ballpark as dual chargepoint L2s.

We need to diversify the public charging space, not limit it. I'd advocate for each of plugs for L1 and L2, L2 stations, and medium speed DCFC in an employee parking lot. The the employees can use what works for them either bringing their own portable EVSEs, using the L2's that are installed, or using the DCFC when necessary.

ga2500ev

 

[ga2500ev]

Commercial accounts are sometimes charged primarily by peak useage. At least I know one of mine is. Your country/state/city may vary. You can actually use less kwh but pay more because of a spike, than another guy next door who uses way more kwh but has a steadier load. That to me, would be HUGE dissuasion to putting in fast chargers at a business.

It's called demand charges. It's a fixed capacity cost of the equipment that needs to be installed to deliver peak power to a circuit, even when that peak power is used sproadically. Demand charges are upwards of $10/kW above a threshold. The peak is measured in 15 minute increments.

Take a 100 kW charger for example. If there's a single 100 kW charging session for more than 15 minutes for a month and the demand charge is $10/kW for every kW over 60 kW, then that one single charging session will add $400 to the monthly bill for that circuit even if that's only 100 kW charging session in the entire month.

Solutions are twofold. First is to limit peak charging. Georgia power for example has a 30 kW capacity circuit with no demand charges until the 31st kW is used. Drop a 25 kW station there and there's never a demand charge for that station. The other option is to back up the station with batteries so that the 30 kW circuit charges the batteries, then the station charges the car at 30kW + the batteries. So the incoming load is never more than 30 kW, but the charger can deliver more power for short periods of time.

ga2500ev

 

[KeithMoon]

Commercial accounts are sometimes charged primarily by peak useage. At least I know one of mine is. Your country/state/city may vary. You can actually use less kwh but pay more because of a spike, than another guy next door who uses way more kwh but has a steadier load. That to me, would be HUGE dissuasion to putting in fast chargers at a business.

... and a great reason to put in NEMA 6-20Rs because you can probably provide 100 spots and it won't cost a penny on your bill because it doesn't create a new peak.

 

[hatchy]

All this talk about expensive chargers makes me wonder why there isn't an inexpensive outlet only solution. That is all a lot of us really need with the proliferation of portable L2 evse's. And wireless data for the billing part of it. Make it quick and cheap for business to get their outlet set up. That way they aren't trying reoup a **** ton of outlay on us.

As a user.. just plug in, swipe your app to activate the 14-50 nema at a cheap rate, and off you go.

 

[KeithMoon]

All this talk about expensive chargers makes me wonder why there isn't an inexpensive outlet only solution. That is all a lot of us really need with the proliferation of portable L2 evse's. And wireless data for the billing part of it. Make it quick and cheap for business to get their outlet set up. That way they aren't trying reoup a **** ton of outlay on us.

As a user.. just plug in, swipe your app to activate the 14-50 nema at a cheap rate, and off you go.

Lol there is, it's what I was talking about above. It's called a NEMA 6-20R. Can be used with the Bolts stock EVSE to get 10+ miles per hour. Assuming folks work 9 hour days (one hour for lunch) then you get 90 miles at work and it costs the employer next to nothing.

 

[hatchy]

Ah gotcha Keith, the important bit is the out of the box ready to go affordable billing hardware.

 

[KeithMoon]

Ah gotcha Keith, the important bit is the out of the box ready to go affordable billing hardware.

What billing hardware? The fact that the amperage is low means it won't peak the employers service and thus it is essentially free for them. Employees just plug in all day and have 90 miles. 100 employee spots can be wired for less than $20,000.

 

[SparkE]

Caltech developed a brillant Large-Scale Adaptive Electric Vehicle Charging network, which balances charging based on need and available power. You can read about it at :

https://ev.caltech.edu/

 

[GregBrew]

Lol there is, it's what I was talking about above. It's called a NEMA 6-20R. Can be used with the Bolts stock EVSE to get 10+ miles per hour. Assuming folks work 9 hour days (one hour for lunch) then you get 90 miles at work and it costs the employer next to nothing.

I'd modify that to put in L6-20Rs. The twist lock really helps to eliminate plug pull-outs.

 

[GregBrew]

What billing hardware? The fact that the amperage is low means it won't peak the employers service and thus it is essentially free for them. Employees just plug in all day and have 90 miles. 100 employee spots can be wired for less than $20,000.

$200 per? Methinks you're smokin' somethin'.

 

[KeithMoon]

What billing hardware? The fact that the amperage is low means it won't peak the employers service and thus it is essentially free for them. Employees just plug in all day and have 90 miles. 100 employee spots can be wired for less than $20,000.

$200 per? Methinks you're smokin' somethin'.

I put mine in for a total parts cost of $50 and it took me less than an hour to do the work. A professional electrician wiring an entire parking lot should spend far less than an hour per receptacle and when buying in a volume from a wholesaler (I bought the parts at Home Depot) the cost of of parts should be even lower than $50.

If think $200 per would provide them a very reasonable per point margin. I am assuming that the conduits to bring the power within 50ft of each point are already in place for other electrical requirements.

I'd much rather the plug pull out if the cord had tension placed on it for some reason (rather than damage the cord because the plug was mechanically captured to the receptacle). Likewise, the employer would be better off if there were lower chance of damage to the receptacle.