[MisterJJ]

like the Space Shuttle was a boondoggle

I wouldn't go that far. There was 135 space shuttle missions and they did a lot of things the average persons does not know about. While space exploration is inherently wasteful, it has driven technological innovation in many areas.

BTW, that Russian shuttle looks like it was made from cardboard. Does it even have black heat tiles or is that just paint?

 

[RacerX00]

I wouldn't go that far. There was 135 space shuttle missions and they did a lot of things the average persons does not know about. While space exploration is inherently wasteful, it has driven technological innovation in many areas.

BTW, that Russian shuttle looks like it was made from cardboard. Does it even have black heat tiles or is that just paint?

I would go further my friend. If you want to know a place where almost every American has the wrong idea, it's the space shuttle program. The only good thing about it is it worked. It's also easily the most unsafe thing astronauts had to fly in since before Apollo. It was just as expensive as going to the moon and it couldn't even get humans beyond earth and was never, ever, reusable with every space shuttle being completely torn down and rebuilt almost from scratch in between flights.

By contrast Soyuz is still flying astronauts to the ISS to this day and has virtually the opposite of every characteristic in price and safety.

Space shuttle was a waste of time, money and most importantly opportunity. It's a symbol of a lost era of space to which we're only now starting to pick back up the pieces.

 

[GJETSON]

China still does.

Do their car companies?

 

[AZBILL]

My experience is that the amount of times that you actually experience the difference between 25 minutes and 45 minutes is negligible. You really gotta be long hauling some major road trip because the reality of the situation is the charges ABRP or even you find yourself penciling out are more like the difference between 25 and 35 minutes because they try and don't always need to charge to 80%, and we're talking about the slowest charging car on the market vs. the fastest (not named Taycan).

I realized this when I was out a lot with my Kona EV and observed the newly arrived ID.4s and Mach-Es, not only was I at the stops for roughly the same time but I saw the same people at the same stations on my routes. It only has a 75KW charger!

Then consider that some of these stops on your road trip you're eating and not sitting at the wheel looking at the gauge going "cmon wtf!"

I do not doubt, and in fact have observed these higher peaked charging cars charge faster, I'm just saying that in reality it's not as night and day a difference as it appears and over the course of a 500 mile road trip only equates to 10-20 minutes more time spent. I need more time on the Bolt to confirm this is true but I'm expecting the real world difference between a 50KW charger and a 75 KW peak charger to be minimal.

I have done a trip in my Bolt from Phoenix to Newport Coast, CA. That is 350 miles. Per ABRP and my experience it is 2 charging stops in the Bolt, requiring 90 minutes total. My Mach E can make it in one stop and 30 minutes charging. Big difference in my opinion. I only need to eat once on that trip.

 

[George Knighton]

2016 Tesla Model S is 120 kW.

It would have been normal to suppose I was talking about the general availability of CCS/SAE charging stations and their rated speeds.

-_-

 

[RichHill48]

Yeah, a decade or more of doing nothing but building electric vehicles is bound to get you ahead of the curve. It's still a valid question though: the Bolt is probably THE slowest charging mainstream EV built today. It is what it is. Back in 2016, it was OK because the charging infrastructure couldn't do any more than 50 kW. I am just disappointed that the 2022 didn't increase the charging speed. It seemed like a great opportunity (time) to do that. They'd really need to double the charging speed to make it competitive with the rest of the 2022 EV lineup.

Mike

I didn't know that the rates of DC charge were different when I bought last March. I also didn't know about how mileage drops off so much in the winter time. Love the Bolt, but will be more aware when I replace it. Chevy better wake up

 

[ARob]

I didn't know that the rates of DC charge were different when I bought last March. I also didn't know about how mileage drops off so much in the winter time. Love the Bolt, but will be more aware when I replace it. Chevy better wake up

It has been said repeatedly on this, and other forums... Bolt DCFC speed will never increase, GM is putting all engineering efforts into Ultium which will speed up DCFC.

 

[EV Trek 37604]

That is also my observation after the 80% limit software update, it looks to me the charge curve just shifted down 20%, the charge rates reflect what I saw before and after the update.
The rate I got previously before the update at 90% is now observed at 80%, what I got previously at 80% I now observe at 70% etc. Not ideal for sure, hopefully when I get the new battery and the final software update that restores 100% charging ability the curve will resort back or be better than what I had before the 80% charge software was installed.

 

[RacerX00]

I didn't know that the rates of DC charge were different when I bought last March. I also didn't know about how mileage drops off so much in the winter time. Love the Bolt, but will be more aware when I replace it. Chevy better wake up

I was a little surprised with the Bolt curve myself. I figured that the curves were intended to not throttle the charging of the batteries too high and since the peak was 50kW that it would stick around there better than say the ID.4 or Mach-E does to their max. Wrong!

We all make stupid assumptions. It's totally true that owning an EV is easier than owning an ICE and you need to know a lot less, but there are still things to know. Charging curves, cold, those are the things that seem to get a lot of people surprised vs. expectations, including me on the Bolt who should have known better having already owned an EV.

 

[RichHill48]

It has been said repeatedly on this, and other forums... Bolt DCFC speed will never increase, GM is putting all engineering efforts into Ultium which will speed up DCFC.

Everything is a learning curve. I never looked at a bolt or any other ev forum before buying. Not blaming anyone but myself. I'm happy with the car. Just sharing, it suits my needs. And at less than 24k for a 2021 with a lot of extras I'd do it again.

 

[Voldar]

I now own a 2017 Bolt and a Mach E (CA Route 1, the longest range model). The real numbers are way better than 2 to 1 in terms of miles per minute or time to add 100 miles.

I will provide a typical charge for you, I have done this with the Bolt and the Mach E.

Start the charge at 30% SoC and then charge to 80% SoC. The Bolt will take 45 minutes to do that and based on my typical highway range that is 105 miles on my 2017. On the Mach E I can do that same charge in 25 minutes and add 160 miles of range. Bolt charges at about 2.4 miles per minute for that case, Mach E at 6.4 miles per minute.

The Mach E peak rate is 160KW and even at 80% it is 80KW before it drops. Yes, the Bolt will get better if you go from 0 to 50%, then you are about 3 miles per minute, still low and that means arriving at a charger with no margin.

Look at it a different way, charging time to get to the next charger, with identical starting margin. If the next charger is 100 miles away, typical average for EA, then you need 100 miles of range added. Bolt takes 45 minutes. Mach E can do that in 16 minutes.

I would argue that doing what you do, charging from 30% to 80% isn't something this Bolt EV owner would do. I always play with the things I can control and I like to optimize my trips/charging sessions. I always plan and try to get to a DCFC at around 10% SOC and always look for a charge up to 60-65 % SOC. This would give me about 200 km in summertime, just enough to get at about 10% to the next DCFC. If the next one is closer, I would just speed up to make sure to have a 10% SOC at arrival. And the play goes on.
You might argue "you try to make lemonade out of a lemon". Well, maybe. But where I am and what I have around me as DCFC infrastructure, your Mach-e would be just a little faster than my Bolt EV. By about 10 mins or so over 500 miles.

 

[AZBILL]

I would argue that doing what you do, charging from 30% to 80% isn't something this Bolt EV owner would do.

This is not "what I do" it is just a real example of what I have recorded. If I start at 10% in both vehicles and charge to 60% the Mach E will put on 150 miles in 28 minutes. The Bolt will put on 130 miles in 40 minutes. Those numbers assume EPA combined range.

Let me provide a real example for you. I have a 300 mile round trip (75 mph speed limits most of the way) coming up and will use my Mach E for that trip. I will need to charge it for 17 minutes on the way home. If I plan the route for my Bolt, it will charge at the same location, but with a lower starting SoC, and will have to charge for 49 minutes to a higher SoC than the Mach E. In the Mach E, I have done a 500 mile round trip and needed just one stop for 25 minutes to make it. There is no way my Bolt can come close to that, minimum of 2 stops and longer times at each one.

 

[Voldar]

Here is the thing. You can check it yourself on ABRP.
1. Bolt EV 2019 66 kWh upgrade (which I have)
2. Mustang Mach-E 2021 AWD
Trip to Toronto from Montreal = 545 km
Times :

• Bolt EV : 6h29 with 45 mins charge
• Mustang Mach-E : 6h08 with 25 mins charge

So, yes, the Bolt EV stayed more to the charger, but the difference of 20 mins isn’t worth 20k $ price difference. And ABRP is 10% off in what concerns the Bolt EV because they don’t have many Ampera-E in Europe. They consider the efficiency of the Bolt EV as 184 Wh/km at 110 km/h while my experience shows it is 168 Wh/km.

IF I input 168 Wh/km efficiency at 110 km/h in ABRP and leave the rest as is, guess what ? The time becomes 6h18 with a stop of 34 mins. <— This is a better approximation and it matches my experience.

So 10 mins between the two cars, for 20k $ more.
It’s not worth it for me and the infrastructure we have here to even consider any of the new EV.

 

[elite88]

We all make stupid assumptions. .. Charging curves, cold, those are the things that seem to get a lot of people surprised

I feel a bit burned by cold weather charging. I had years of experience with the Leaf, and even posted here asking about cold weather road trip charge speed. The answer I thought I got was that on a cold road trip, the first charge stop starts slow, but charging warms the battery, and the rest of the stops are fine.

I'd say that's true down to maybe 50F/10C. From freezing to 50F, every charge stop starts at 42kw (I think 35kw with the replaced pack) then ramps up to 50kw. And below freezing, I never ramp up to 50kw ever, even if its my 3rd DCFC and I plug in at 10%.

The behavior is a bit more complex than I understood when shopping. Weekend trips between Chicago and St Paul are pretty slow.

Ironically, the Leaf charged faster in the cold. It was terrible in summer, but below freezing, you hit 50kw on the 2nd and 3rd charge. Maybe I should have a 62kw Leaf for winter and a Bolt for summer

 

[AZBILL]

Here is the thing. You can check it yourself on ABRP.
1. Bolt EV 2019 66 kWh upgrade (which I have)
2. Mustang Mach-E 2021 AWD
Trip to Toronto from Montreal = 545 km
Times :

• Bolt EV : 6h29 with 45 mins charge
• Mustang Mach-E : 6h08 with 25 mins charge

So, yes, the Bolt EV stayed more to the charger, but the difference of 20 mins isn’t worth 20k $ price difference. And ABRP is 10% off in what concerns the Bolt EV because they don’t have many Ampera-E in Europe. They consider the efficiency of the Bolt EV as 184 Wh/km at 110 km/h while my experience shows it is 168 Wh/km.

IF I input 168 Wh/km efficiency at 110 km/h in ABRP and leave the rest as is, guess what ? The time becomes 6h18 with a stop of 34 mins. <— This is a better approximation and it matches my experience.

So 10 mins between the two cars, for 20k $ more.
It’s not worth it for me and the infrastructure we have here to even consider any of the new EV.

View attachment 40644
View attachment 40643

You must be comparing a standard range Mach E, you did say it was AWD. That has lower range than the Mach E and lower charging speeds than the extended range battery.

ABRP is way off for my Mach E, I have a CA Route 1 with 305 miles of range, RWD and extended battery. I do not use ABRP for any route planning, but have compared it to actual trips. On my trip to Grand Canyon it told me I would arrive at my charger with 13%, in real life I arrived with 33%. That trip was 75 mph up a 6000 ft elevation change and I was getting 3.1 mile/kWh, or 270 miles of highway range under those conditions. My Bolt was lucky to get 170 miles with the older battery under the same conditions, but I could get 190 miles at 75mph on a flat road with no wind. So with the new battery, maybe 210 miles.

FYI, I have taken my Bolt Phoenix to Flagstaff with the old battery and ABRP told me I could not make it.

 

[Voldar]

Either way, even with the RWD it’s only 3 mins faster VS AWD.
And don’t get me wrong, I am glad you have your Mach-E and enjoy it. I only say that I don’t see the benefit of me buying it to replace my Bolt EV. 13 mins difference don’t make up for 20 000 $ more, to me.

And make no mistake, I know we can have better numbers than ABRP.

 

[MisterJJ]

For my trips to Las Vegas:
Bolt: 6:02 (58 min. charging)
Tesla M3 RWD: 5:29 (25 min. charging)
Tesla M3 LR: 5:00 (5 min. charging)

 

[AZBILL]

For my trips to Las Vegas:
Bolt: 6:02 (58 min. charging)
Tesla M3 RWD: 5:29 (25 min. charging)
Tesla M3 LR: 5:00 (5 min. charging)

My Mach E is in between your Teslas, 15 minute charging in Kingman. On the way home I left Vegas at 80%, and only needed 10 minutes, since it is downhill to Phoenix. I did not log my times. I have never taken the Bolt to Vegas, but 58 minutes sounds right. I have done a round trip Phoenix to Tucson in the Bolt and charged for 45 minutes. That is also 300 miles, just like Vegas.

And the real downfall of the Bolt is that for that trip to Vegas, there are not 2 close enough chargers to make 2 shorter stops. Kingman is the only option and it is right in the middle.

 

[elite88]

ABRP's charging estimates are extremely inaccurate. For example, if I am going to stop at a 25kw dealer charger, I hand-edit the stop and plug-in 18kw into ABRP (because the charge will start at 17kw and end at 19kw). If stopping at a "50kw" charger, I'll try to estimate pack temp, and adjust to 43kw or so. Once every stop has been hand-edited for charging speed, the ABRP time estimate is pretty accurate.

 

[AZBILL]

And make no mistake, I know we can have better numbers than ABRP.

To get the right consumption for ABRP, at least on flat roads, the Mach E Extended RWD needs to be set to 3.3mile/kWh, ABRP has it at 3.1. For that trip using my known consumption, 15 minutes is all that is needed for 10% margin at the end of the trip. ABRP still has issues compensating for terrain and speed greater than 65, it overestimates consumption in those cases. In Arizona we have 75 mph speed limits and many mountains. I have found my Ford and Chevy apps give better predictions.

I am willing to pay more for a car based on higher range and better charging. I like the Bolt also, but these two cars are not really competitors. My wife notices the charging time differences, she gets really impatient waiting. The first trip we took in the Mach E, after having the Bolt for 4 years, she said "that's it, we are done charging?" Happy wife = happy life. She is also not very tech savvy and doesn't even have any charging apps on her phone, With the Mach E she can plug in at EA charger and push the continue button. The Mach E is her car, I am getting an EV truck to replace the Bolt and my current GMC pickup. I need to be able to tow up to a 7000 lb trailer.