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The difficult market for EVs is the lower segments; the economy sedans and low to mid-priced CUVs. It seems the $35k price point is about as affordable an EV can be made and not lose money on each one. $35k in the ICE/hybrid market opens a lot of options.
Bolt would probably break even at MSRP, but not with the $10,000 discounts there are now. Model 3 break even is probably around the SR+ version.
 

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Downtown Sacramento ... literally EV's everywhere! All makes and models and occasionally I've also seen FCEVs. One of the most interesting is the UPS EV truck that runs a route near our office. I see that one quite often. The most common EV here is probably the Model 3, but there are also a large number of BoltEVs and Leafs. Sacramento City uses some BoltEVs for Parking Enforcement and they are also part of the State of California fleet vehicles
I had forgotten, they're so common that they are unremarkable: Go to visit the neighborhoods and there are Gig Carshare Bolts parked every few blocks. Like they've always been a part of the city. 260 cars, run by a subsidiary of AAA. The future is ... now.

Article.

 

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Discussion Starter #23
It does seem that, among non-EVs, new BMW 3-series and Priuses have become less common than in the past. Perhaps the Tesla Model 3 is now selling to people who would have bought either of those cars 5-10 years ago (even though each of those cars' buyers probably would not have considered the other).
Agreed, I think Tesla has cut hard into BMW and Mercedes sales.

 

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I live somewhat inland in S. CA. It's a mini spot for rednecks, so what I see on the road is a lot of electrics, intermixed with Bigfoot types of pick-ups. Kind of surrealistic seeing the electrics next to these huge trucks belching diesel smoke. Of course the moronic truck owners love to ICE recharging spots...
 

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...and those Trump folks will one day adopt EVs once they become more mainstream. Conservatives are laggards with regard to technology adoption (and new stuff in general) by definition. Who knows if those future EVs will be trucks, or something else. Then further out, vehicles will become autonomous, so projecting an image through vehicle ownership will be even less common.
who's the laggard? careful, you're in mixed company...
 

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who's the laggard? careful, you're in mixed company...
It's a generalization, which is generally true, and it isn't an insult. It's important to preserve the things that work well, and it's also important to try new things because that's the process of improvement. Most new ideas are terrible and fail. Sometimes the new ideas are better. Liberal types challenge the status quo, mostly have terrible ideas, but sometimes improve things. Conservatives preserve the status quo and run the day to day operations with much less interest in challenging the status quo and offering their own terrible ideas for change.

It's all right in the slogans. "Hope and Change"- It's a message to try new things because they could be better. "Make America Great Again"- The call to preserve what made the thing great in the first place.

You can't constantly be changing because that's chaotic and unstable, but you can't never change, because new challenges arise that need to be addressed. Both have their place.

When I've offended both ends of the spectrum, I know I've struck close to the ideal position on a matter.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Wow, saw 3 Volt today!!!
 

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When I've offended both ends of the spectrum, I know I've struck close to the ideal position on a matter.
Not quite. Rather, the converse is true. When you have struck close to the ideal position on a matter (p), then you have offended both ends of the spectrum (q). p implies q, not q implies p. There are lots of ways to offend both ends of the spectrum without coming remotely close to an ideal position.
 

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Here in the Greater Capital District of NY, I bought my Bolt Premier in September without ever seeing one on the road or in an ad. I had seen a couple of Model 3's about. Recently I noticed another Bolt in the nearby Target parking lot, and a different one entering another shopping center. At my grocery store I noted another Model 3 a few times. I guess we shop at the same time and day. Now I see a Leaf in a driveway in my neighborhood. That is the sum total over 5 months. Two Chevy dealers offer Bolts online but I have never seen an ad in print or on TV (but I don't watch much TV).

Each Chevy dealer claim a DCFC available 24/7 for free. An area Walmart has DCFC in their parking lot and a grocery store has one EVGo pedestal. Level 2 chargers abound though but I have never seen one in use.
 

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Not quite. Rather, the converse is true. When you have struck close to the ideal position on a matter (p), then you have offended both ends of the spectrum (q). p implies q, not q implies p. There are lots of ways to offend both ends of the spectrum without coming remotely close to an ideal position.
I'm missing your point. Of course, I could call everyone a "lying dog-faced pony soldier" and they'd probably be offended or confused, but that wasn't what I was talking about. My point is that any issue where 2 values are represented, the idea position is usually somewhere in the middle. The extremists entirely dismiss the valid concerns of the opposite position. An ideal position considers the concerns and attempts a solution that maximizes the preservation of both values.

Of course, we all have our biases, and mine is that when some issue is difficult to understand, I prefer to err on the side of liberty. That means my bias is 1 step in the direction of libertarian, and 1 step further from authoritarian. If we don't know what's best, let individuals decide rather than bureaucracy.
 

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Saw a slate gray Bolt with Student Driver posted on it. In New Mexico, if you want a driver's license before the age of 18, you have to take driving classes with a minimum required number of driving hours. Assuming people make extra money providing this training. Would think the Bolt would be perfect for this.
 

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I'm missing your point. Of course, I could call everyone a "lying dog-faced pony soldier" and they'd probably be offended or confused, but that wasn't what I was talking about. My point is that any issue where 2 values are represented, the idea position is usually somewhere in the middle. The extremists entirely dismiss the valid concerns of the opposite position. An ideal position considers the concerns and attempts a solution that maximizes the preservation of both values.

Of course, we all have our biases, and mine is that when some issue is difficult to understand, I prefer to err on the side of liberty. That means my bias is 1 step in the direction of libertarian, and 1 step further from authoritarian. If we don't know what's best, let individuals decide rather than bureaucracy.
Yeah, in the end you need to make moral judgments about those positions, not just seek the middle. As a libertarian, I imagine you will agree that the ideal between "I want to be safe" and "I want to murder you" is the former, not the latter. The concerns of murderers should not be considered morally legitimate such that the ideal outcome would be "you will be maimed, but not fully murdered".

It's a contrived example, but it shows the point: you can't ever get away from drawing moral judgments of the positions.

To get back to the change vs stability argument, the same thing holds: sometimes we need change, because standing still means obsolescence or death, or when the status quo is intolerable. But at other times, change is bad, because everything is working just fine or the proposed change is worse. You always need to examine the specifics of the situation, not get caught up in principles.

IMO.
 

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Yeah, in the end you need to make moral judgments about those positions, not just seek the middle. As a libertarian, I imagine you will agree that the ideal between "I want to be safe" and "I want to murder you" is the former, not the latter. The concerns of murderers should not be considered morally legitimate such that the ideal outcome would be "you will be maimed, but not fully murdered".

It's a contrived example, but it shows the point: you can't ever get away from drawing moral judgments of the positions.

To get back to the change vs stability argument, the same thing holds: sometimes we need change, because standing still means obsolescence or death. But at other times, change is bad, because everything is working just fine or the proposed change is worse. You always need to examine the specifics of the situation, not get caught up in principles.

IMO.
Exactly right. I qualify my statements by saying "generally", which implies that the middle between 2 extremes is not always ideal. That said, most any controversial topic that involves roughly half of people on one side, and half on the other, the ideal is usually somewhere in between. There isn't anything approximating a 50/50 split in the safety vs murder analogy above. The example that comes to my mind would be the extremes of "sacrifice everything to slow climate change" and "do nothing to slow climate change".

My point is that conservative vs liberal mindset isn't a good vs bad proposition; they both have their strengths, and they both have their weaknesses. They are complementary to each other since the strength of one counteracts the weakness of the other.

My slight libertarian leaning has to do with my adventurous nature, which requires freedom and is more accepting of consequences than most others. Decisions should be made at the lowest, closest level to the problem to be solved. Each larger circle of authority involved to solve a problem represents the smaller organizations failure to solve it. The problem of "what should I have for dinner" isn't most effectively addressed by a committee in the federal government, but instead at the individual or family level. The problem of "what should we do about climate change" isn't adequately addressed at the family level, so it becomes the purview of the federal government (and beyond to geopolitics). Every problem should ask the question of "what is the smallest organizational body that can adequately address it?".
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Saw a slate gray Bolt with Student Driver posted on it. In New Mexico, if you want a driver's license before the age of 18, you have to take driving classes with a minimum required number of driving hours. Assuming people make extra money providing this training. Would think the Bolt would be perfect for this.
Student driver, building security, local package delivery...
 

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Here in Central NY, I actually noticed a surge of EVs about 6-7 years ago. At the time, it was mostly Volts, a few Model Ses and a very occasional Leaf. Then they seemed to all disappear for 3 years or so, and I rarely saw any EVs. Now the tide is turning again and I see a ton of Model 3s, Prius Primes, and Volts with the occasional Leaf, Bolt, Niro, and Ioniq thrown in there*.

*Sightings exclude the nearly 20 EVs that are currently parked at my workplace.
20! WHOA. 4-5 years ago, the only EV I ever saw was a red Model S in Owego. They are still pretty rare. I've only once seen another Model S in the Binghamton area at the Vestal Walmart.

I've seen a handful of model 3s, and friends have a Volt. I have never seen a Volt around here before.

I see huge numbers of Teslas along with a few Primes and a Leaf whenever I go to a Cornell hockey game up in Ithaca. CU has a pile of parking spaces reserved for AFVs. Unfortunately only two of those have any charging infrastructure, and it's a Chargepoint L2 with a 3-hour limit. A problem when a typical hockey game is just over 3 hours, and 3.5+ if it goes into OT. I wish Cornell would add some wall plugs just to help with preconditioning.

I noticed that while you're listed as being in Syracuse, you've commented on one of the Bolt forums about utilization of the Binghamton Supercharger station, so it sounds like you go down Front Street pretty often?

Despite being an electric industrial vehicle manufacturer (forklifts), we have 0 EVs and maybe a few Prius Primes that I'm aware of. One of our retirees was notorious for plugging in either an EV or a Prime to the wall outside the CEO's office (being a director-level engineer with 25+ years at the company has its perks including a reserved parking spot), but that's it as far as charging at work.
 
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