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Another Tesal burns any Bolt fires?

36K views 109 replies 40 participants last post by  NewsCoulomb  
#1 ·
My GMA watching wife loves to point out EV's on fire. The latest, a 3 month old Tesla being towed for a flat tire. https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-fire-flat-tire-tow-truck/ Obviously there are many fewer Bolts on the road, but I haven't read about one catching fire yet. Lithium is a nasty chemical, but there are no other batteries ready to replace it.:eek:
 
#5 ·
Not really. It's a chemistry game. The number of EVs around the world using chemistry similar to the Bolt EV far outnumber the total population of Tesla vehicles, but you don't even need to make this an us-versus-them scenario. The chemistry used for Tesla's batteries is already well known to be more flammable than the battery chemistry used in other mainstream EVs.
 
#11 ·
The construction of the battery is what makes the Tesla EVs more prone to fires. The +4,000 lithium cells in the Tesla battery have no protection between them, maybe a layer of epoxy. If one cell burst, the shrapnel will perforate the neighboring cells, thus extending the fire.

GM designs, and maybe others, use flat prismatic pouches, and have a cooling plate between each pack of three cells. So if a cell ruptures, the two neighboring cells will be impacted, but the cooling plates isolate that event and protect the battery from a cascading effect as in the Tesla design.

Tesla may be better at energy density, but that density make sit dangerous, such as storing many sticks of dynamite together, instead of putting them in individual boxes.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Tesla may be better at energy density, but that density make sit dangerous, such as storing many sticks of dynamite together, instead of putting them in individual boxes.
That’s not a very good, or accurate analogy. Decades ago, I possessed a restricted, (max 50lb of explosive), blasting licence.
I’ve also hauled thousands of lbs of Amex, (50lb bags), & “stick” dynamite to mining camps in the high Arctic, using aircraft. Bags were piled on pallets, & secured. Stick product looked like long sausage tubes, 50lb to a box. Today’s product is very stable, & can be safely burned for disposal.The blasters would pull a front end loader up to the cargo door & literally toss boxes from aircraft into the bucket.
Placing each bag, or stick, in its own little cigar box does not enhance safety. If it detonates, ALL the other little boxes beside it will detonate.
The Bolt batteries are more resistant to thermal runaways due to the nickel rich composition vs the older lithium ion cells.
After the incidents of new Boeing 787 Dreamliner fires,(traced to high humidity causing shorts), we were all given training on lithium combustion, & extinguishing of such.
It is not enough to just smother the fire, you need to soak it, fully, or it tends to reignite. In one demonstration, water/Coke/beer was poured onto a burning battery, successfully quelling an intense burn,(much like the strips of magnesium you lit in Grade 5 science class).,
Another demo dumped a bucket of ice onto the burn, it reignited, several times. Some airlines carry special “bags” that a burning laptop can be placed in, though that is not practical for a Bolt or Tesla.
I don’t believe there has been a Bolt fire, though there have been several Volts cook off.
Further reading here,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents
 
#13 ·
^ "Okay... which genius fired the gun back there? .... I told you kids no gun-play inside the car!!!"


Can't make this stuff up!
 
#20 ·
If you do a quick search on ntrs.nasa.gov of "18650" you'll find a wealth of information about mitigation of runaway cells. The density requirements of an EV make the best methods arguably impossible.

Tesla's choice to go w/the 18650 format was certainly pragmatic when they started production (money for prismatic development vs money for other things) and a decently elegant hack but it seems increasingly a legacy burden as time passes. They need an Apple moment a la dumping MacOS and going to something more solid (*NIX).

On the other hand, they're selling cars like hotcakes. People maybe don't care about these things, and why should they given the actual statistical outcome?
 
#23 ·
I've wondered and asked what the advantages/disadvantages of cylindrical vs prismatic are before, and there doesn't seem to be much info on the subject.

I'd think prismatic would be cheaper since they can be built physically larger, and with less empty space, and less packaging material, and can be made with plastic cases rather than metal.

Tesla no doubt did their research when they decided which direction to go, and currently have the cheapest per kWh battery packs. Thermal management should be easier with the larger surface area. I'm not sure what other advantages it has. There must be some simplicity of rolling the battery up into a cylinder though.
 
#24 ·
I've wondered and asked what the advantages/disadvantages of cylindrical vs prismatic are before, and there doesn't seem to be much info on the subject.
Luke Workman is a battery pack designer who designed most of Zero Motorcycles packs, as well as for others. His internet handle is liveforphysics. He has been in battery factories in China for years now. The layperson will never have access to a more knowledgeable source. He is independent, and doesn't care what he says...no corporate speak.

You can find his comments on Endless Sphere, if you are willing to dig. He comments on stuff there most days.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=56308
 
#27 ·
It happened in Ukraine. Perhaps the president pressured them to set it on fire? :rolleyes:

Seriously though, as Eric pointed out, there are lots of possible things that could have been wrong with this car that wouldn't normally occur in the States.
 
#29 ·
Even the simplest version of this includes that it was a Bolt designed for USA only. Any mods, allowing it to be used on 50HZ would be an even greater violation than the voltage, which would also need to be modified. That, and many things in Kiev are vandalized. No one should assume that this situation has anything to do with the proper use of a Bolt within the USA at 60HZ.
 
#33 ·
... They have dashcams because Russia has a high rate of car accidents and car insurance fraud.

... Meanwhile /I/ have a dashcam in the US because of wonderful past interactions with Southern Cops and Southern People. Because of guns.

So I'm not sure if you're making the point you think you're making.

Russian traffic law heavily favors first hand accounts unless evidence is provided. They don't tend to do what we do, which is have a thorough road surface investigation after disputed serious accidents. (You know, where sometimes the police shut down a section of road and measure debris, swerve marks, etc.)

They aren't putting cams in their car because they are afraid of getting a bullet in them.

"Russia averages 25.2 traffic fatalities per 100,000 people. The U.S., by comparison, had 13.9 road deaths per 100,000 people in the same year, despite having six times more cars. "


As for gun violence numbers, feel free to look those up and compare between Russia and the US. I've done that kind of comparison so many times over the years that now I just leave it to others to do for themselves. (Or more likely, not do it at all, then move the goalposts in the discussion.)
 
#34 ·
The connection I made was the number of Russian videos showing someone getting angry in traffic and brandishing a gun. Perhaps those videos are more prevalent due to the sheer number of dashcams in Russia, but still, "Crazy Russians" is an often referenced theme.

Concerning fraud, the guy that shot his Tesla took a settlement check from Tesla even though he knows he was responsible for the fire. I'm not putting that beyond any nationality, as bad actors exist everywhere, but I have a stronger association with that sort of behavior in Russia, justified or not.
 
#37 ·
Over on Reddit a claimed Bolt owner says the burned Bolt in Ukraine belonged to a friend (who has previously posted in that Reddit group), and he says it was charged earlier in the day, then parked. He says it was bought used but not a not a Salvage title (common for exports), and police concluded no vandalism.

Some readers are skeptical that this poster is authentic.

I expect that further explanations will be interesting.

[this is a clickable link]: