[pagrey]

Gas is a consumable. Solar is hardware. Two completely different products.

I’m done here.

Solar panels don't last forever, they are consumable. You can say you're done and that's fine but you're not even close to understanding the answer.

 

[Left Coast Geek]

Solar panels don't last forever, they are consumable. You can say you're done and that's fine but you're not even close to understanding the answer.

yeah, in 30 years, they'll be generating 80%+ of what they did when new. On the other hand, in 30 years, I'll be 101 yrs old, and no longer care.

 

[p7wang]

Solar panels don't last forever, they are consumable. You can say you're done and that's fine but you're not even close to understanding the answer.

So the better comparison is an oil rig + refinery + labor and maintenance costs X while solar panels cost Y. Multitudes cheaper! LOL

 

[pagrey]

So the better comparison is an oil rig + refinery + labor and maintenance costs X while solar panels cost Y. Multitudes cheaper! LOL

It's not zero cost, it's not $1. I'm all for it but don't make stupid statements that are not true. It doesn't help anybody outright lying about cost.

 

[pagrey]

yeah, in 30 years, they'll be generating 80%+ of what they did when new. On the other hand, in 30 years, I'll be 101 yrs old, and no longer care.

You said you didn't spend $1, you did. You spent way more than that. It's a lie.

 

[p7wang]

It's not zero cost, it's not $1. I'm all for it but don't make stupid statements that are not true. It doesn't help anybody outright lying about cost.

If you invest a dollar for a share of stock and got a dollar back in dividends, does continuing to own the stock and continuing to receive dividends cost you anything? You are arguing your definition that does not align with the world of business, philosophy maybe. LOL

When the sleazy solar sales comes over and tell you get their solar loan and you 'save' hundreds a month in utility cost. That is a lie. Look at your solar + utility payments to see if you are actually saving money (loans incorporate interest to account for risk). After the solar panels are paid off, though, solar maintenance + utility payments are the real deal.

 

[Left Coast Geek]

You said you didn't spend $1, you did. You spent way more than that. It's a lie.

I didn't spend $1 this year on Electricity, unless you count the cost of the car, and the charging cord (that it didn't come with). If the Bolt didn't use the electricity that it does, my total costs for energy would be exactly the same going forward. Therefore, the electricity the Bolt uses is completely free.

 

[MichBolt]

Calm down people. @pagrey is making an argument in terms of cost amortization over the life of the solar panels. In that sense, the "cost" is never zero. That's a technically correct way of describing the cost of an asset that depreciates.

It's a semantic argument. The payback period is less than 3 years, and @Left Coast Geek is getting a great return on his investment.

 

[redpoint5]

Just to perturb everyone even more, I consider investment opportunity cost when considering the total cost of solar.

I paid $10k for my 6.4kWh solar installation (with lots of subsidies) and a projected 10 year break-even. What would that $10k have appreciated to in a low cost index fund 10 years later?

I'll need a new roof in the next few years, and I have no idea what the cost to remove and reinstall the panels would be. I will probably do that work myself, but I'm not looking forward to it.

 

[p7wang]

Obviously, troll on Chevy bolt.org. LOL

 

[Left Coast Geek]

I probably should start a driving/charging log but the charging part will be easier once the L2 charger is wired up next week. The charger was $430 + $40 sales tax, and the installation will be $360 or something, lets just call it $800 total, so that's some more sunk cost.

...
I'll need a new roof in the next few years, and I have no idea what the cost to remove and reinstall the panels would be. I will probably do that work myself, but I'm not looking forward to it.

yeah, we got a new roof about 5 years before we got solar, and we got the premium 30 year asphalt shingles

magnetic north is the right side. our local climate, mornings are often overcast, so we concentrated the panels on the west rather than east sides. the roofs pitch is very shallow... 16KW of panels generate 85-90 kWh most days in June & July, tapering off to 50-60 kWH in October and 20-30 kWH per day in December/January...

This was last year, pre-electric car. We weren't home Jan-Apr, so usage was a little lower, but I left my home computer servers running, they average about 500 watts. December was cold, so a lot of electric heat.

 

[2020 Bolter]

It's not zero cost, it's not $1. I'm all for it but don't make stupid statements that are not true. It doesn't help anybody outright lying about cost.

But in my case the return has been more than my investment. I can send you my spreadsheet.

 

[bisco]

Just to perturb everyone even more, I consider investment opportunity cost when considering the total cost of solar.

I paid $10k for my 6.4kWh solar installation (with lots of subsidies) and a projected 10 year break-even. What would that $10k have appreciated to in a low cost index fund 10 years later?

I'll need a new roof in the next few years, and I have no idea what the cost to remove and reinstall the panels would be. I will probably do that work myself, but I'm not looking forward to it.

this is a calculation the solar quotes left out. i had to come up with my own conservative scenario, which extended the 10 year payback even further.

 

[bisco]

When you pay for gas you pay 100% up front. Does it cost anything to drive your gas car?

i think you need a different analogy for the accounting challenged among us. something you buy like solar, and saves you money over time that you would otherwise spend like solar.

 

[GregBrew]

Not to be critical but you paid way more than one dollar, in your example $0.10/kWh it would take about $5 to charge the Bolt each time. That's a great cost but yep, more than $1, which is all I said.

Point taken. I'm betting they considered the system installation to be a sunk cost, and didn't consider amortizing it over the system's lifetime production as well as other opportunity costs.

 

[GregBrew]

i would love to live somewhere where gas was $4.75 and electricity was 12 cents!

Southern California, but I'm cheating on the electricity costs, with solar PV.

 

[redpoint5]

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/10/trump-interior-department-cancels-largest-solar-project-in-north-america-00602071

Trump administration cancels largest solar project in United States

The Bureau of Land Management has officially cancelled the Esmeralda 7 solar project, a Nevada-based project that would stand among the world’s largest solar power plants, large enough to power nearly 2 million homes.

pv-magazine-usa.com

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/oct/10/trump-officials-drop-major-solar-power-project-in-another-renewable-energy-attack

Those projects weren't banned, only the "Inflation Reduction Act" money was withdrawn.

If so-called renewables are cheaper, then they don't require a single cent of taxpayer money since it pays for itself. Don't tell me we've been lied to about how cheap so-called green energy is.

 

[p7wang]

Those projects weren't banned, only the "Inflation Reduction Act" money was withdrawn.

If so-called renewables are cheaper, then they don't require a single cent of taxpayer money since it pays for itself. Don't tell me we've ben lied to about how cheap so-called green energy is.

Seeing Trump had to remove the renewable subsidy then double subsidy to oil and gas, it sure looks like renewable is cheaper.

 

[redpoint5]

Seeing Trump had to remove the renewable subsidy then double subsidy to oil and gas, it sure looks like renewable is cheaper.

We've all debunked the Big Oil subsidy narrative decades ago. Everything is subsidized by oil, including the oil industry itself, so we can stop trying to confuse dimwitts with fake news.

 

[p7wang]

We've all debunked the Big Oil subsidy narrative decades ago. Everything is subsidized by oil, including the oil industry itself, so we can stop trying to confuse dimwitts with fake news.

This is from the all mighty anti-woke Grok. Nope, there are NOT 5 lights. KEK

Global Overview of Oil and Gas Subsidies

Oil and gas subsidies are financial supports provided by governments to the fossil fuel industry, including direct payments, tax breaks, underpriced access to resources, and implicit benefits like unpriced environmental externalities (e.g., climate damage and air pollution). These subsidies make fossil fuels artificially cheaper, distort markets, and hinder the transition to renewables. According to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), global fossil fuel subsidies (including oil, gas, and coal) reached a record $7 trillion in 2022, equivalent to 7.1% of global GDP. This figure has surged due to post-pandemic energy price spikes and support for consumers during the Russia-Ukraine conflict. Of this, explicit subsidies (undercharging for supply costs) totaled about $1.3 trillion, while implicit subsidies (e.g., unpriced externalities) made up the rest.


The IMF projects subsidies could rise further, with earlier estimates suggesting $5.9 trillion in 2020 (6.8% of GDP), potentially increasing to 7.4% by 2025. Oil products account for nearly half of explicit subsidies, natural gas about 20%, and coal 30%. Top subsidizers include China, the US, Russia, the EU, and India. The International Energy Agency (IEA) reports that subsidies for oil, gas, and electricity consumption more than doubled in 2022 compared to 2021, though they declined slightly in 2023 as some emergency measures expired.


G7 countries committed to phasing out inefficient subsidies by 2025, but provided at least $282 billion in 2023—nearly triple the 2020 amount—largely due to energy price shields in Europe. Globally, production subsidies in G20 countries averaged $290 billion annually (2017-2019), with ~95% going to oil and gas.

Key Components of Subsidies

Subsidies are categorized as explicit (direct government support) or implicit (hidden costs not reflected in prices). Here's a breakdown:

Category	Description	Examples	Global Estimate (2022)
Explicit Subsidies	Direct undercharging for supply costs below market or production expenses.	Consumer price caps on fuel; direct payments to producers; forgone taxes/VAT.	~$1.3 trillion (18% of total)
Implicit Subsidies	Failure to price in externalities or taxes.	Unpriced climate damage (~$4.2 trillion); local air pollution/health costs; forgone consumption taxes.	~$5.7 trillion (82% of total)

Reforming these could generate $4.4 trillion in annual revenue (per IMF) while reducing emissions by 34% and saving 1.6 million lives from air pollution. However, phase-outs must include support for vulnerable households to avoid regressive impacts.

US-Specific Subsidies for Oil and Gas

In the United States, the oil and gas industry receives significant federal support despite record profits (e.g., over $250 billion from 2021-2023). A 2025 Oil Change International study estimates $31 billion annually in direct subsidies, more than double the $20 billion in 2017. This includes tax expenditures, royalty relief on public lands, and financing from government-backed entities. When adding new provisions from the 2025 "One Big Beautiful Bill Act" (a major spending package), total new subsidies over the next decade could reach $40 billion, or ~$4 billion per year.


Broader estimates, including implicit subsidies like unpriced environmental damage, push the figure to $62 billion annually for major oil, gas, and diesel firms (per a 2021 Yale study, likely higher in 2025 due to rollbacks). The industry contributes billions in taxes and royalties but benefits from deductions that reduce its effective tax rate.

Major US Subsidy Mechanisms

The US subsidies are embedded in the tax code and date back to the early 20th century. Key ones include:

Subsidy Type	Description	Annual Value (Est.)	Details
Intangible Drilling Costs (IDC)	Immediate deduction of ~65-100% of drilling/setup costs (e.g., labor, chemicals) instead of amortizing over years.	~$4-5 billion	Allows rapid write-offs, reducing taxable income for exploration.
Foreign Tax Credit for Royalties	Credits foreign royalties/taxes against US taxes, avoiding double taxation on overseas income.	~$10-15 billion	Biggest single subsidy; benefits multinational firms like ExxonMobil.
Percentage Depletion Allowance	Deducts 15% of gross income from wells (vs. actual costs), even after asset recovery.	~$1-2 billion	More generous than standard depreciation; applies to independent producers.
Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs)	Tax-advantaged structure for pipelines/infrastructure, avoiding corporate taxes.	~$1-2 billion	Passes income directly to investors; proposed for repeal in bills like H.R. 383 (2025).
Last-In, First-Out (LIFO) Inventory Accounting	Values newest (most expensive) reserves first, inflating costs and deductions.	~$2-3 billion	Reduces taxable income during high-price periods.
Carbon Capture (45Q) Credits	Tax credits up to $50/ton CO2 captured (expanded in 2022 IRA).	$3-835 billion (2025-2042 projection)	Supports "clean" fossil tech but criticized as a giveaway; low-end for 2022-2031.
Royalty Relief on Public Lands	Reduced rates for drilling on federal lands/waters (lowered further in 2025 bill).	~$2-4 billion	Below-market access; expanded under recent legislation.

These are targeted at production but also include consumption supports like fuel tax exemptions. Critics argue they contradict climate goals, as existing fields already exceed 1.5°C carbon budgets. Legislation like the End Oil and Gas Tax Subsidies Act (H.R. 383, 2025) aims to repeal many, but passage is uncertain.


For more details, see IMF's 2023 update or IEA's 2023 subsidies report. Subsidies vary by country and evolve with policy—e.g., Europe's 2023 gas price caps added billions.