[JRRF]

I think your observations are spot on. There is not enough electricity production to support full electrification not even close. And with temperature getting higher and demand for electricity increasing to cool our houses also increasing, the demand will keep rising so will be the price.

This argument has been debunked several times in different ways. The issue is not production, but timing. And with storage systems (battery and otherwise), as well as more EVs with VHL capability, there is more than enough storage available. And if we could get back to funding more renewable energy -- which is cheaper to produce and maintain -- then we literally will never run out.

 

[p7wang]

This argument has been debunked several times in different ways. The issue is not production, but timing. And with storage systems (battery and otherwise), as well as more EVs with VHL capability, there is more than enough storage available. And if we could get back to funding more renewable energy -- which is cheaper to produce and maintain -- then we literally will never run out.

Plus, if production is an issue, then utilities should be begging rate payers to install rooftop solar and pay them close to retail price for power generated. I use too little power so would only be allowed a small system, thus high cost per watt. I would love for the utility to give me a sweet deal to install a system 2-3x what I need and get paid handsomely for it. I am in a city so the electricity will be used immediately by someone in the same community or nearby.

 

[JRRF]

Plus, if production is an issue, then utilities should be begging rate payers to install rooftop solar and pay them close to retail price for power generated. I use too little power so would only be allowed a small system, thus high cost per watt. I would love for the utility to give me a sweet deal to install a system 2-3x what I need and get paid handsomely for it. I am in a city so the electricity will be used immediately by someone in the same community or nearby.

Yeah. They don't want this because if everyone installed solar they would essential go out of business.

 

[SpaceBolt]

Nextera, who owns Florida Power & Light, definitely does not like rooftop solar in Florida. They have tried and failed to get it “outlawed.” So now they use a backward looking rule to limit the installation to 115% of last years usage. Many installers make the homeowner get permission from Nextera before they will proceed with a larger system, which is a big PITA.

Sorry for going off the thread’s subject, but this still ticks me off.

 

[ARob]

I think your observations are spot on. There is not enough electricity production to support full electrification not even close. And with temperature getting higher and demand for electricity increasing to cool our houses also increasing, the demand will keep rising so will be the price.

I am quite certain the same doomsday predictions accompanied the onset of Air Conditioning in every home in the not so distant past, the utility industry successfully navigated that, and energy use has dropped since, due to improved efficiency of appliances.

There are so many things going on to prepare for the onslaught of electrification, I am not worried.

One of the biggest problems to solve is actually one of the easier ones, often referred as flattening the curve. Generating capacity is probably overbuilt, if energy use was constant. But people come home from work at the same time of day, turn the thermostat up or down to increase comfort, cook, do laundry, charge their cars at the same time, generally 3-8PM daily. The grid responds by firing up additional generating capacity, but this starting and stopping of generators is inefficient, even costly. Conversely, late at night, or very early in the morning, energy use plummets and generators are idled, again at considerable cost and effort. What if people could schedule their activities so that there were no peak demand periods, or no low demand periods.

That is precisely how EVs can (and already do) help, and it is a rather simple thing to do. Schedule charging to happen during these low demand periods rather than when everyone is doing energy intense activities.

I think in recent years, the boogieman has shifted from EVs to Data Centers. AI and crypto mining are creating the need for huge data centers which use significant amounts of energy 24x7. Most of the doomsday focus has shifted from the impact EVs will have to the impact of data centers, the argument about EVs causing issues has been mitigated by the Smart Charging counter argument, even some studies suggesting EVs are a significant positive factor in energy management. But in a way, the 24x7 nature of data centers may actually help flatten the curve.

Why is flattening the curve important? It is a long discussion, worthy of an entirely new thread, but has been discussed many times on this forum. So I won't repeat it, but will just say, EVs are not the biggest problem facing energy supply constraints, and potentially offer several ways to help manage energy supply.

 

[FTAFreedom]

No....it's HELLA WORTH IT!

 

[Yellow Yapper]

I am quite certain the same doomsday predictions accompanied the onset of Air Conditioning in every home in the not so distant past, the utility industry successfully navigated that, and energy use has dropped since, due to improved efficiency of appliances.

There are so many things going on to prepare for the onslaught of electrification, I am not worried.

One of the biggest problems to solve is actually one of the easier ones, often referred as flattening the curve. Generating capacity is probably overbuilt, if energy use was constant. But people come home from work at the same time of day, turn the thermostat up or down to increase comfort, cook, do laundry, charge their cars at the same time, generally 3-8PM daily. The grid responds by firing up additional generating capacity, but this starting and stopping of generators is inefficient, even costly. Conversely, late at night, or very early in the morning, energy use plummets and generators are idled, again at considerable cost and effort. What if people could schedule their activities so that there were no peak demand periods, or no low demand periods.

That is precisely how EVs can (and already do) help, and it is a rather simple thing to do. Schedule charging to happen during these low demand periods rather than when everyone is doing energy intense activities.

I think in recent years, the boogieman has shifted from EVs to Data Centers. AI and crypto mining are creating the need for huge data centers which use significant amounts of energy 24x7. Most of the doomsday focus has shifted from the impact EVs will have to the impact of data centers, the argument about EVs causing issues has been mitigated by the Smart Charging counter argument, even some studies suggesting EVs are a significant positive factor in energy management. But in a way, the 24x7 nature of data centers may actually help flatten the curve.

Why is flattening the curve important? It is a long discussion, worthy of an entirely new thread, but has been discussed many times on this forum. So I won't repeat it, but will just say, EVs are not the biggest problem facing energy supply constraints, and potentially offer several ways to help manage energy supply.

Increasing usage of utility-scale battery storage is already helping some grid systems with "flattening the curve" and the traction batteries in our EVs can be used for this. When they cannot provide enough performance for vehicle propulsion (less capacity and power) they might still be usable in a Battery Energy Storage System (BESS). Even the degraded batteries from the air-cooled Nissan Leafs can be used in BESSs.

 

[SpicyBolt]

I am quite certain the same doomsday predictions accompanied the onset of Air Conditioning in every home in the not so distant past, the utility industry successfully navigated that, and energy use has dropped since, due to improved efficiency of appliances.

There are so many things going on to prepare for the onslaught of electrification, I am not worried.

One of the biggest problems to solve is actually one of the easier ones, often referred as flattening the curve. Generating capacity is probably overbuilt, if energy use was constant. But people come home from work at the same time of day, turn the thermostat up or down to increase comfort, cook, do laundry, charge their cars at the same time, generally 3-8PM daily. The grid responds by firing up additional generating capacity, but this starting and stopping of generators is inefficient, even costly. Conversely, late at night, or very early in the morning, energy use plummets and generators are idled, again at considerable cost and effort. What if people could schedule their activities so that there were no peak demand periods, or no low demand periods.

That is precisely how EVs can (and already do) help, and it is a rather simple thing to do. Schedule charging to happen during these low demand periods rather than when everyone is doing energy intense activities.

I think in recent years, the boogieman has shifted from EVs to Data Centers. AI and crypto mining are creating the need for huge data centers which use significant amounts of energy 24x7. Most of the doomsday focus has shifted from the impact EVs will have to the impact of data centers, the argument about EVs causing issues has been mitigated by the Smart Charging counter argument, even some studies suggesting EVs are a significant positive factor in energy management. But in a way, the 24x7 nature of data centers may actually help flatten the curve.

Why is flattening the curve important? It is a long discussion, worthy of an entirely new thread, but has been discussed many times on this forum. So I won't repeat it, but will just say, EVs are not the biggest problem facing energy supply constraints, and potentially offer several ways to help manage energy supply.

We have Xcel Energy here as much of your Colorado does too. We've been told Xcel has excess capacity at night largely due to wind. Southern Minnesota and Iowa are quite windy. Iowa gets ~60% of it's electricity from wind. We can probably handle a good many more EVs charging at night especially charging at rates no more than necessary. We only use 240v @ 16 amps for our EUV, and 120v @ 8-12 amps for our little Bolt. Our electric oven uses far more, and we aren't baking at 2 am. From 9 pm-9 am the rate is cheap as dirt.

 

[ARob]

We have Xcel Energy here as much of your Colorado does too. We've been told Xcel has excess capacity at night largely due to wind. Southern Minnesota and Iowa are quite windy. Iowa gets ~60% of it's electricity from wind. We can probably handle a good many more EVs charging at night especially charging at rates no more than necessary. We only use 240v @ 16 amps for our EUV, and 120v @ 8-12 amps for our little Bolt. 9 pm-9 am the rate is cheap as dirt.

I think I mentioned a program Xcel uses in the Denver area in a recent post. Their smart charge program allows people to choose which off-peak timeslot of 6 hours (I think) they want to define as their preferred off-peak charging period. In return, rates are lower on their EV charging during their chosen time.

So, as a subscriber, I might choose one of 2-3 time slots in the daytime (before 3PM I suspect) or 3-4 slots at night (after 7PM as I recall). The times overlap, but by staggering them, the load from charging is more evenly distributed.

CO gets a lot of energy from solar and wind, and in early mornings, it is quite common to see idle wind turbines across the eastern parts of the state. They only start the turbines when demand increases. But the wind often blows throughout the night, so if more EVs charged overnight, more of the idle generators would be allowed to run, which in turn creates a better ROI.

On our big cross country trip, I spent almost 2 hours in Flagler, CO at the EA site at the I-70 Diner. I spoke to several truckers and ranchers who were quite curious about EVs. Now, before you ask about why 2 hours, this was in early April, with ambient temps around 30-32F and 75MPH headwinds. So, that, along with the slow elevation gain heading into Denver, efficiency was abysmal, and I charged to 99% just to have enough to get to the next site.

Several of the ranchers claimed they make more money off leasing land to the wind generating companies than from ranching itself. They are paid a flat fee for the lease, and a % off of the actual energy produced. We laughed, but I said, so you are to blame for these abysmal travel conditions! It was a good exchange, and several mentioned they were waiting for EV trucks due to arrive later that year, with Ford Lightning being the first. They saw the clear benefits of using EV trucks for their ranching activities, a common theme I heard talking to ranchers across KS and eastern CO on that, and other trips.

I laughed because the so called coastal elites seem to look down on these salt of the earth, bible thumpers, but they truly understood the benefits of electrified transportation in a way that differs considerably from the coastal elites. For them, it was purely a matter of getting the job done, economics, and practicality. From that, I took away that it isn't important why people choose to drive an EV, only that they be given information to help decide if it is a viable alternative. I would have guessed these guys would be anti-EV, they were anything but!

 

[SpicyBolt]

I think I mentioned a program Xcel uses in the Denver area in a recent post. Their smart charge program allows people to choose which off-peak timeslot of 6 hours (I think) they want to define as their preferred off-peak charging period. In return, rates are lower on their EV charging during their chosen time.

So, as a subscriber, I might choose one of 2-3 time slots in the daytime (before 3PM I suspect) or 3-4 slots at night (after 7PM as I recall). The times overlap, but by staggering them, the load from charging is more evenly distributed.

CO gets a lot of energy from solar and wind, and in early mornings, it is quite common to see idle wind turbines across the eastern parts of the state. They only start the turbines when demand increases. But the wind often blows throughout the night, so if more EVs charged overnight, more of the idle generators would be allowed to run, which in turn creates a better ROI.

On our big cross country trip, I spent almost 2 hours in Flagler, CO at the EA site at the I-70 Diner. I spoke to several truckers and ranchers who were quite curious about EVs. Now, before you ask about why 2 hours, this was in early April, with ambient temps around 30-32F and 75MPH headwinds. So, that, along with the slow elevation gain heading into Denver, efficiency was abysmal, and I charged to 99% just to have enough to get to the next site.

Several of the ranchers claimed they make more money off leasing land to the wind generating companies than from ranching itself. They are paid a flat fee for the lease, and a % off of the actual energy produced. We laughed, but I said, so you are to blame for these abysmal travel conditions! It was a good exchange, and several mentioned they were waiting for EV trucks due to arrive later that year, with Ford Lightning being the first. They saw the clear benefits of using EV trucks for their ranching activities, a common theme I heard talking to ranchers across KS and eastern CO on that, and other trips.

I laughed because the so called coastal elites seem to look down on these salt of the earth, bible thumpers, but they truly understood the benefits of electrified transportation in a way that differs considerably from the coastal elites. For them, it was purely a matter of getting the job done, economics, and practicality. From that, I took away that it isn't important why people choose to drive an EV, only that they be given information to help decide if it is a viable alternative. I would have guessed these guys would be anti-EV, they were anything but!

It just goes to show that it's the politicians that sow division in our country, not the people.

 

[JRRF]

They saw the clear benefits of using EV trucks for their ranching activities, a common theme I heard talking to ranchers across KS and eastern CO on that, and other trips.

It makes a lot of sense for farmers to use EV pickup trucks. For one one, they don't need the $100k gold-plated one. And driving around the farm and into town everyday rarely puts more than 100 miles on the truck. And, there is hardly a farm out there where a solar array wouldn't be a perfect source of electricity.

 

[shrox]

China has an electrical grid that's more stable and robust than America's.

A link to Medium.


Even India's grid is more stable.

 

[JRRF]

China has an electrical grid that's more stable and robust than America's.



Even India's grid is more stable.

In this country all kinds of things are going to get worse without the type of stable government and long term investment that's necessary to remain the world leader. Even our education systems is going to fall behind. It took over a century to establish the US as the leader in academics and research around the world, with students from across the globe looking to study here. Now that's coming apart, and international students are taking their ingenuity and curiosity (and tuition money) to universities in Canada, Europe, and elsewhere.

 

[Eric1704]

Here in Northern California where it’s 31 cents per kWh during off peak hours on the power companies ev rate and EVGO charges 57 cents before noon and 67 cents from noon to 9pm, owning an electric car is a a crazy idea! Unless you have solar panels. Once they are paid for kWh are free.

But isn't gas also around $5 a gallon? California sadly is a lost cause.

 

[Eric1704]

Your comment is very funny to me, as it was one of our friends in his mid 80s that cemented our decision to go electric and to get a solar system. IMHO, EVs are better for the older generations, for all the reasons stated in this thread!

On another note, although we live in a very “Red” county in a “Red“ state, EVs are extremely common (I think FL is just behind CA on adoption). On any given Sunday, our Church parking lot is full of Bolts, Kia & Hyundai EVs, Rivians, and the ever ubiquitous Teslas.

It is not FL that is red with EVs. lol It is all those blue state escapees that were brainwashed into buying them that own them after moving to FL.

 

[JRRF]

It is not FL that is red with EVs. lol It is all those blue state escapees that were brainwashed into buying them that own them after moving to FL.

For decades Florida was a blue state. Even today it's not as red as you might think. And once the state government pisses off enough people, it might turn blue again.

 

[christopher.white143]

China is leadng the world in electrification, 2/3rds of their rail is electrified high speed and they dominate much of the EV market globally. Whereas here in Canada we can't even get a high speed rail built between Toronto and Montreal, our two largest cities.
The European countries aren't far behind. In Norway 90% of new car sales were electric in 2024. Plus they have a Sovereign oil fund worth $1.9 trillion.
North America is behind in infrastructure, behind in technology, because we cling to oil like the Brits did to coal. Every empire masters the fuel that drives their empire. Coal for the Brits in the 19th century, oil for the USA in the 20th and now China is mastering electrification for the 21st.
This does not bode well for the West and as long as our politicians are beholden to fossil fuel companies its not going to change. To this you can add domestic politics, oil producing US states and Canadian provinces want to maintain the status quo, regardless of climate change and the annual fire season which happens every summer. If we don't wake up I suggest giving Mandarin lessons to your kids and grandkids.

 

[Eric1704]

China is leadng the world in electrification, 2/3rds of their rail is electrified high speed and they dominate much of the EV market globally. Whereas here in Canada we can't even get a high speed rail built between Toronto and Montreal, our two largest cities.
The European countries aren't far behind. In Norway 90% of new car sales were electric in 2024. Plus they have a Sovereign oil fund worth $1.9 trillion.
North America is behind in infrastructure, behind in technology, because we cling to oil like the Brits did to coal. Every empire masters the fuel that drives their empire. Coal for the Brits in the 19th century, oil for the USA in the 20th and now China is mastering electrification for the 21st.
This does not bode well for the West and as long as our politicians are beholden to fossil fuel companies its not going to change. To this you can add domestic politics, oil producing US states and Canadian provinces want to maintain the status quo, regardless of climate change and the annual fire season which happens every summer. If we don't wake up I suggest giving Mandarin lessons to your kids and grandkids.

And I read somewhere China has more solar panels than the rest of the world combined. Is that true or close?

 

[Eric1704]

For decades Florida was a blue state. Even today it's not as red as you might think. And once the state government pisses off enough people, it might turn blue again.

Might be a long time ago. Because in recent history it has been a red state.

 

[christopher.white143]

China is leadng the world in electrification, 2/3rds of their rail is electrified high speed and they dominate much of the EV market globally. Whereas here in Canada we can't even get a high speed rail built between Toronto and Montreal, our two largest cities.
The European countries aren't far behind. In Norway 90% of new car sales were electric in 2024. Plus they have a Sovereign oil fund worth $1.9 trillion.
North America is behind in infrastructure, behind in technology, because we cling to oil like the Brits did to coal. Every empire masters the fuel that drives their empire. Coal for the Brits in the 19th century, oil for the USA in the 20th and now China is mastering electrification for the 21st.
This does not bode well for the West and as long as our politicians are beholden to fossil fuel companies its not going to change. To this you can add domestic politics, oil producing US states and Canadian provinces want to maintain the status quo, regardless of climate change and the annual fire season which happens every summer. If we don't wake up I suggest giving Mandarin lessons to your kids and grandkids.

And I read somewhere China has more solar panels than the rest of the world combined. Is that true or close?

I would suspect true. We considered solar panels for our house and it was incredibly hard to find ones not made in China