[SteveEngineer]

This happened to us, or it was a series of very bizarre coincidences. We removed the Amazon devices from our house a few years ago. I don’t usually go for conspiracies but this as just too weird for us.

I suppose you would need to read the Google and Amazon policíes on privacy and understand the legalese. Apple makes it very plain. They sell hardware, software, and services, not your data.

 

[RickSE]

I suppose you would need to read the Google and Amazon policíes on privacy and understand the legalese. Apple makes it very plain. They sell hardware, software, and services, not your data.

The three echo dots sitting unplugged in my basement say otherwise. 😇

 

[Zelten]

GM is not writing the code, or at least not all of it. They are joining the Eclipse Foundation which is a group that produces open source code. The Ultium system is meant to integrate Google maps, etc, so there isn't a lot that can go wrong. I reserve judgement until there are cars to actually experience.

The Eclipse Foundation doesn't write the code itself; it just defines the APIs in the hope of promoting interoperability. The member organizations write the code and share it through open source.

The quality of anything that comes out of an affiliation with Eclipse is going to depend about 90% on GM's ability to write (or subcontract) code.

 

[Zelten]

There are two fundamental things going wrong at GM, both of them due to the fact that decisions are being made by accountants, not designers and engineers.

1. OnStar is a fundamentally broken business model. The service is ridiculously expensive for what it offers because it is ridiculously expensive to provide. And no product or service can succeed if it's starting point is "cost plus" pricing. It has to start from customer value and then figure out a way to deliver that value in a way that costs less than customers are willing to pay. When OnStar debuted, it was worth a premium price to some buyers. But these days, it has largely been superseded by smartphones, often providing the same services for free. Maybe there is an opportunity to provide some of the unique OnStar features as software/car integration via the customer's own smartphone; but as a standalone service it is just too expensive to deliver. At this point GM is desperately trying to invent additional services to justify OnStar, but most of the ideas they are kicking around are either things a phone already does; or things that might happen once in a lifetime ("suppose you had a heart attack while driving, and the car sensed that, and brought the vehicle to a safe stop automatically" - I kid you not.)

2. GM thinks that the customer's Next Best Alternative (or NBA, as marketing people say) if AA/CP integration is unavailable is to pay for their subscription service. It isn't. Their NBA is to use their phone in a holder or air vent mount; or to buy a different car entirely. Customers are simply not going to pay for an inferior GM service over what their Smartphone provides; or a duplicate of what their phone provides; or even a superior service if the familiar one on the phone is "good enough". And GM's curated selection of apps is never going to compare to the AA/CP stores. GM thinks that the tail is wagging the dog here.

GM's entire thinking around software value-add is upside-down. They need to be thinking "our customers have smartphones; what can we do to leverage that at low cost to us and high value to them?". And they aren't.

 

[rudiger]

There are two fundamental things going wrong at GM, both of them due to the fact that decisions are being made by accountants, not designers and engineers.

1. OnStar is a fundamentally broken business model. The service is ridiculously expensive for what it offers because it is ridiculously expensive to provide. And no product or service can succeed if it's starting point is "cost plus" pricing. It has to start from customer value and then figure out a way to deliver that value in a way that costs less than customers are willing to pay. When OnStar debuted, it was worth a premium price to some buyers. But these days, it has largely been superseded by smartphones, often providing the same services for free. Maybe there is an opportunity to provide some of the unique OnStar features as software/car integration via the customer's own smartphone; but as a standalone service it is just too expensive to deliver. At this point GM is desperately trying to invent additional services to justify OnStar, but most of the ideas they are kicking around are either things a phone already does; or things that might happen once in a lifetime ("suppose you had a heart attack while driving, and the car sensed that, and brought the vehicle to a safe stop automatically" - I kid you not.)

2. GM thinks that the customer's Next Best Alternative (or NBA, as marketing people say) if AA/CP integration is unavailable is to pay for their subscription service. It isn't. Their NBA is to use their phone in a holder or air vent mount; or to buy a different car entirely. Customers are simply not going to pay for an inferior GM service over what their Smartphone provides; or a duplicate of what their phone provides; or even a superior service if the familiar one on the phone is "good enough". And GM's curated selection of apps is never going to compare to the AA/CP stores. GM thinks that the tail is wagging the dog here.

GM's entire thinking around software value-add is upside-down. They need to be thinking "our customers have smartphones; what can we do to leverage that at low cost to us and high value to them?". And they aren't.

Thomas Murphy, whose tenure as GM CEO in the seventies was between the great Ed Cole and the quite lackluster Roger Smith, is essentially only remembered for the following quote: "General Motors is not in the business of making cars. It is in the business of making money."

While all businesses do that (and, frankly, cannot survive otherwise), it's the way and to the extreme which can quite negatively impact their bottom line. GM has, historically, had a very bad habit of doing exactly that, ultimately resulting in a 2009 bankruptcy filing. The abandonment of CP/AA on new Ultium vehicles is a calculated gamble and I'm not sure that GM is going about it the right way.

I like Mary Barra but wonder about her input on this decision.

 

[ARob]

Thomas Murphy, whose tenure as GM CEO in the seventies was between the great Ed Cole and the quite lackluster Roger Smith, is essentially only remembered for the following quote: "General Motors is not in the business of making cars. It is in the business of making money."

While all businesses do that (and, frankly, cannot survive otherwise), it's the way and to the extreme which can quite negatively impact their bottom line. GM has, historically, had a very bad habit of doing exactly that, ultimately resulting in a 2009 bankruptcy filing. The abandonment of CP/AA on new Ultium vehicles is a calculated gamble and I'm not sure that GM is going about it the right way.

I like Mary Barra but wonder about her input on this decision.

While perhaps not intuitive, companies that treat employees and/or customers extremely well tend to do quite well financially.

Apple for example puts customers first in many ways, and customers reward them with loyalty, buying the latest iThis, iThat, or service because it all is designed to work extremely well together. They honor warranties, even beyond their expiration at times, and that buys them goodwill that can't be bought.

Companies that are first and foremost financially motivated are often seen as petty, harsh, greedy, or not customer oriented.

GM has a long way to go to demonstrate customer orientation. In fact, their CarPlay decision screams just the opposite. I can see Android users aren't so upset about losing Android Auto, because almost all of the apps/functionality is replicated in the infotainment system.

I realize they are giving new owners several years of subscription-free, or cost-free subscriptions to basic functionality. But we have all seen it before, free for 5 years, then 3, then 1 and finally 30-90 days. It is inevitable when finance people carry the influence in the boardroom, and customers see through the greediness.

I am sure a lot has changed in the GM boardroom over the years, but reputations takes a very long time to reverse.

 

[SteveEngineer]

While perhaps not intuitive, companies that treat employees and/or customers extremely well tend to do quite well financially.

Apple for example puts customers first in many ways, and customers reward them with loyalty, buying the latest iThis, iThat, or service because it all is designed to work extremely well together. They honor warranties, even beyond their expiration at times, and that buys them goodwill that can't be bought.

Companies that are first and foremost financially motivated are often seen as petty, harsh, greedy, or not customer oriented.

GM has a long way to go to demonstrate customer orientation. In fact, their CarPlay decision screams just the opposite. I can see Android users aren't so upset about losing Android Auto, because almost all of the apps/functionality is replicated in the infotainment system.

I realize they are giving new owners several years of subscription-free, or cost-free subscriptions to basic functionality. But we have all seen it before, free for 5 years, then 3, then 1 and finally 30-90 days. It is inevitable when finance people carry the influence in the boardroom, and customers see through the greediness.

I am sure a lot has changed in the GM boardroom over the years, but reputations takes a very long time to reverse.

I might also add Costco to that customer-friendly model.

 

[SpicyBolt]

But these days, it has largely been superseded by smartphones, often providing the same services for free. Maybe there is an opportunity to provide some of the unique OnStar features as software/car integration via the customer's own smartphone; but as a standalone service it is just too expensive to deliver.

OnStar now includes this with their plans. It can be used by up to 7 people on their phones.

1. OnStar is a fundamentally broken business model. The service is ridiculously expensive for what it offers because it is ridiculously expensive to provide.

OnStar is adding some features at no cost for the first 8 years starting with all 2025 model year GM vehicles.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/02/more-onstar-features-now-standard-on-all-2025-gm-vehicles/

Note: I'm not defending OnStar and won't try to dissuade anyone who thinks it's terrible. So, I'm not going to get into a debate about it. I just wanted to mention a few OnStar changes that many may not be aware of, FWIW.

 

[Packard V8]

I might also add Costco to that customer-friendly model.

As I recently mentioned in another thread, it's amazing how two people can have the same experience and come away feeling polar opposites. The list of why I feel Costco is inherently evil would take pages. Some are:

1. Here in Washington, Costco spent ten million dollars sponsoring ballot initiatives to allow retail sales of liquor. The first time, citizens voted against this. Costco doubled down, spending millions more and making a back room deal with the state government to take on much of the cost of closing down the liquor stores and the unemployment costs of the state store employees. Result, Costco is the #1 liquor retailer in the state and Washington consumers now pay by far the highest prices for liquor in the US. Yes, Costco is customer friendly - NOT!!

2. They force suppliers to use two or three times as much cardboard and plastic packaging as the same item in retail stores.

3. They don't do long term research of the quality of products they sell; who'll sell to them cheapest is the model. It's easy for me to see this, because there is a salvage outlet near me which buys Costco returns. There will be rows, piles, 4'x4' cartons of returned relatively new products which failed in use. Recently, I saw a hundred small pressure washers, fifty stainless BBQ grills with rusted out burners, hundreds of strings of outdoor lights, et al.

4. Costco encourages "buy it now; you can always return it" which runs up the cost to those who don't do that. All one has to do is walk by the returns line where a family bought all new tents, sleeping bags, coolers and water sports gear for a vacation and returned every piece of it. The week after the Super Bowl, there will be flats loaded with returned big screen TVs. The afforementioned outlet store has a huge carton of auto wiper blades for $2. First time I saw it, "That's a good deal." Looking through the crate, it was obvious loyal Costco customers had bought new wiper blades, put their used ones in the package and returned them for a refund.

5. Two dozen giant muffins.

6. Items are routinely moved around in the store with no guide to what's where. This is done intentionally to force shoppers to traverse aisles they might not otherwise visit and encourage impulse purchases. Staples, such as paper goods are placed in the fartherest corners so one has to walk twice by items he might not otherwise see.

However, nothing can be totally evil - Costco roast chicken is the best value in ready-to-serve food.

jack vines

 

[schwinn]

My only experience is with Apple. Cannot vouch for the others.

I have friends in all-Apple housholds that have experienced similar behavior. I would not trust ANY big company with microphones.

That said, I have Google products in the house, and we use them for all sorts of things. My wife sees this behavior (the secret listening) at times, but it's interesting that I don't... not sure why.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I came across this interesting article: https://www.techradar.com/phones/ip.../i-bought-a-car-without-apple-carplay-and-i-dont-miss-it-at-all-thats-a-problem

I haven't had any major issues with AA... funny to hear CarPlay having numerous issues. Maybe I'm just lucky (I will say, machines and tech do seem to like me, whereas my wife has issues often. She'll sometimes rub her phone on my arm when it hangs, and it will magically finish loading or whatever... neither of us can explain that!)

But I do agree with the loss of buttons, and the increased distraction of any of these systems (AA/CP). I'm just happy the Bolt has a volume knob (though it's annoying when I get a Waze message and I'm trying to turn down the radio volume, and instead I'm turning down the Waze volume... but that's GM's fault for a crappy setup in that regard).

I do like what I see with AA for the most part. And the voice recognition and behavior is quite nice (eg, when I do a "Hey Google" it mutes the radio or Spotify for me, and listens to my command, etc... pretty nice). I don't trust GM to build their own alternative that would be any better than AA/CP, though - I had a Caddy ATS with their new interface... what a pile of garbage that was. And they guaranteed updates "for life" and never updated squat on mine... typical GM.

 

[GregBrew]

As I recently mentioned in another thread, it's amazing how two people can have the same experience and come away feeling polar opposites. The list of why I feel Costco is inherently evil would take pages. Some are:

1. Here in Washington, Costco spent ten million dollars sponsoring ballot initiatives to allow retail sales of liquor. The first time, citizens voted against this. Costco doubled down, spending millions more and making a back room deal with the state government to take on much of the cost of closing down the liquor stores and the unemployment costs of the state store employees. Result, Costco is the #1 liquor retailer in the state and Washington consumers now pay by far the highest prices for liquor in the US. Yes, Costco is customer friendly - NOT!!

2. They force suppliers to use two or three times as much cardboard and plastic packaging as the same item in retail stores.

3. They don't do long term research of the quality of products they sell; who'll sell to them cheapest is the model. It's easy for me to see this, because there is a salvage outlet near me which buys Costco returns. There will be rows, piles, 4'x4' cartons of returned relatively new products which failed in use. Recently, I saw a hundred small pressure washers, fifty stainless BBQ grills with rusted out burners, hundreds of strings of outdoor lights, et al.

4. Costco encourages "buy it now; you can always return it" which runs up the cost to those who don't do that. All one has to do is walk by the returns line where a family bought all new tents, sleeping bags, coolers and water sports gear for a vacation and returned every piece of it. The week after the Super Bowl, there will be flats loaded with returned big screen TVs. The afforementioned outlet store has a huge carton of auto wiper blades for $2. First time I saw it, "That's a good deal." Looking through the crate, it was obvious loyal Costco customers had bought new wiper blades, put their used ones in the package and returned them for a refund.

5. Two dozen giant muffins.

6. Items are routinely moved around in the store with no guide to what's where. This is done intentionally to force shoppers to traverse aisles they might not otherwise visit and encourage impulse purchases. Staples, such as paper goods are placed in the fartherest corners so one has to walk twice by items he might not otherwise see.

However, nothing can be totally evil - Costco roast chicken is the best value in ready-to-serve food.

jack vines

I'll add:

7. Costco contracts with many of their suppliers to package their items in bundles or with slightly different features than available at other retail outlets. This means that a customer cannot directly compare pricing on many items, because they are different.

 

[RickSE]

I'll add:

7. Costco contracts with many of their suppliers to package their items in bundles or with slightly different features than available at other retail outlets. This means that a customer cannot directly compare pricing on many items, because they are different.

That’s not just Costco. Try to compare refrigerators or mattresses. They are all slightly different between Costco, Sam’s club, Lowe’s, Home Depot, macys, etc.

 

[XJ12]

It can be used by up to 7 people on their phones.

I could have used this when I was by myself and fell off the roof last year at my Mom's house to repair some wind damage to the roof vent. Had many thoughts running thru my mind as I laid there stunned after the ladder departed when it slipped on the deck from the rain. Oh wait, now I remember that I had forgotten my cell phone in the house. Guess it wouldn't have worked. That and I barely get cell service there.

Luckily I survived the approximate eight foot drop and didn't need medical attention. Bruised my ego about as much as it did my body though.

 

[rudiger]

That’s not just Costco. Try to compare refrigerators or mattresses. They are all slightly different between Costco, Sam’s club, Lowe’s, Home Depot, macys, etc.

Tire manufacturers learned this, long ago. Just try and price-match the same brand/size/model of tire. It can't be done because the same, identical tire has a different name between sellers.

 

[rudiger]

While perhaps not intuitive, companies that treat employees and/or customers extremely well tend to do quite well financially.

Apple for example puts customers first in many ways, and customers reward them with loyalty, buying the latest iThis, iThat, or service because it all is designed to work extremely well together. They honor warranties, even beyond their expiration at times, and that buys them goodwill that can't be bought.

Companies that are first and foremost financially motivated are often seen as petty, harsh, greedy, or not customer oriented.

GM has a long way to go to demonstrate customer orientation. In fact, their CarPlay decision screams just the opposite. I can see Android users aren't so upset about losing Android Auto, because almost all of the apps/functionality is replicated in the infotainment system.

I realize they are giving new owners several years of subscription-free, or cost-free subscriptions to basic functionality. But we have all seen it before, free for 5 years, then 3, then 1 and finally 30-90 days. It is inevitable when finance people carry the influence in the boardroom, and customers see through the greediness.

I am sure a lot has changed in the GM boardroom over the years, but reputations takes a very long time to reverse.

They really lost the plot a half-century ago with the onslaught of high-quality, mass-produced Toyotas. For starters, GM management didn't see it coming until it was too late. The Big 3 business model has always been to build vehicles that were just slightly than the domestic competition. But when GM had garnered an overwhelming share of the market long ago, they didn't even have to do that, anymore. This was the most profitable way and worked well enough until a much better, foreign product came along.

And that's when GM began the extreme cost-cutting in earnest, with the objective being, "yeah, we know we sell crap, but it's real cheap crap that can be bought by the great unwashed (but still very loyal) masses who still live by GM's past reputation". That line of though moved sales steadily away from the lucrative civilian market and skewed more and more to fleets until the situation was untenable, and bankruptcy ensued.

And, now, with the abandonment of CP/AA, it sure looks like GM is drifting back to that same situation. What's more, it seems extremely odd since, AFAIK, the situation only applies to their tech-heavy Ultium products. Someone can correct, but does this mean that CP/AA is going to continue on in all GM ICE vehicles?

Personally, I've never really used anything more than Google Maps, anyway, so maybe there's something to GM's logic. OTOH, as has been stated, this whole idea of subscription-based payment for features that were previously free, well, seems like a golden opportunity for the competition to get conquest sales by foregoing that kind of greedy nonsense. You can bet that other manufacturers will be watching this experiment very closely.

 

[RickSE]

Tire manufacturers learned this, long ago. Just try and price-match the same brand/size/model of tire. It can't be done because the same, identical tire has a different name between sellers.

We were buying a refrigerator at Lowe’s, and then found the “same” one at Costco. They shared the same owners manual that listed a bunch of model numbers for what was essentially the same refrigerator. Of the two we looked at there was a face plate that was grey on one and silver on the other. No price match for me. Mattresses that start with the same letter (cloud vs crown) are exactly the same at Macys vs Bloomingdale’s. No price match either!