Maybe there will be a demand for lower powered DCFC at shopping places. 150kW and 350kW units are just overkill for these locations.

 

In 2024 maybe, but what about next year, or the year after that? Of course I don't really know what a "shopping place" is. Maybe a shopping place is something in on the outskirts of town that a visitor stops by, or maybe a shopping place is just off a "business bypass" that for some people is a great place to stop, but for residents it is a downtown shopping district.

 

About dang time! Idle fees should be painfully high. This is one of the things Tesla understands super well. Just checked the app, they charge $1/min and if you overstay the 5 minute grace, the idle charge starts from time 0, not time 5 min. However, they only charge the fee when the station is >50% full.

 

Personally I’m fine with EA charging idle fees regardless of station utilization percentage (you never know when a batch of cars is gonna roll in and all need to charge at the same time, considering a lot of EAs are only 4-6 stalls). They should also keep the 10 min grace period but implement the rest of Tesla’s idle fee policy: $1/min starting from when charging ended billed after the 10 mins. I say 10 mins because we all know EA is infamous for having charge faults and if you get a notification that charging stopped, you may need 10 min to walk back to the charger and re-activate. Also, EA needs to alert you when charging stops with a notification.

 

I was looking at some EA sites this morning to answer a question on another forum, and I remember now seeing something about idle fees. I didn't put 2+2 together until I saw this. I absolutely agree it's about time.

 

Ran across a user on another forum complaining about getting hit with a $10 idle fee at EA. He claims to have "stepped in" to Walmart to pick up a few items and was indignant about being hit with the fee. This is a user who enjoys free charging, and apparently charged near home while shopping...

They're definitely doing it here. My friend is selling a classic BMW. Potential buyer came out in an i4 and plugged in at the local EA. They did a 20 or 25 minute test drive and he came back to find that charging had stopped on its own and he'd been charged for 10 minutes of idle time. I don't know if he was able to reverse the charges. Given the number of times EA has prematurely disconnected for me in the past, I'm guessing this will be an experience a lot of folks will have.

 

EA's tendency to prematurely terminate a charge session is exactly why I don't feel comfortable leaving them unattended from too far of a distance.

 

Ran into this twice in the past 2 days. Small road trip home to see mom for mothers day (220 miles each way) only really need to stop and charge for 15-20 minutes to be "safe"

brand new 6 stall EA station, plugged in, turns out it won't charge at all unless you have $10 in your account minimum (I had like $7.50) No where in the app or charger does it say you need to have a min amount to start a charge session, all it told me was "under $5 and it will auto reload"

on the return trip home, making sure my account had like $20 in in, pull into a charger, plug in, holy crap it worked! For 60 whole seconds before I got the "session completed" summary. So it decided it was done after transferring .50kwh to me. Moved stalls and was able to get it to actually work for the 15 minutes I needed it to.

I only public fast charge maybe 6 times a year total? each time there's always some bullshit that makes the process annoying and for someone less experienced with EV's it would be downright scary the thought of getting stranded due to a crappy charger.

I'm all for idle fees in congested areas, but when the very charger itself disconnects you if the wind blows gently, what's the point? Love my EUV but it appears that GM themselves and EA are doing everything they can to push people to other brands with constant stupid little problems that all add up over time.

 

$1/min seems quite excessive, but the 50% utilization rule seems fair.

In my view, idle fees shouldn't exceed what you'd pay to charge during that time. The utilization threshold might get folks comfortable not being concerned with occupying a stall while not charging, only to surprise them later when a site finally gets more than 50% utilization. Best to train the habit you want from the beginning rather than make it more complicated by utilization rates.

...although I'm always a proponent of real-time pricing. If it's labor day weekend, set the price to the market rate for the available chargers to encourage people to move along quickly when demand is high. Set the price at 3am to cost plus 5% to encourage charging when demand is low.

 

50% occupancy to trigger idle fees isn't an easy thing either. Is it 50% when you plug in, or when you are charging, or when you completed, or after you completed? As you say, probably better to train the habit to always apply idle fees so nobody is confused.

Tesla apparently does some real time pricing, or at least based on historical use. They also charge higher fees for charging to more than 80% when the site is busy. But, Tesla is a software company, I can't imagine EA having the SW talent to pull of anything this granular.

 

Three years too late. I say, after a 10 min grace, charge $5/min. people will stop "running in and running out" of Wal-mart.

 

That is a bit extreme, but it would surely get the point across!

I understand Tesla is $1/min idle fees. Probably enough without being too draconian.

Interestingly, only 1-2 "sympathetic" posts on the guys argument that the site was in very low demand at the time, most of the replies are elated that EA is finally doing this. Mind you, this is a site catering to owners of EVs that get free EA charging. Same seems true here on CB.org.

 

It's an interesting bit, but the charging to bring people in for business works.
I'm not anti-Walmart, but I don't go there very often. Too busy for me... When I choose to go shopping, Walmart generally isn't where I choose to go.

But when I drive and need to charge, EA's at Walmarts are usually where I stop, and when I do that, I pop into that Walmart while charging to get trip related stuff (i.e. junk food).

So, it works... ;-)

 

I don't know how many times I've started a charge at EA, walked to store or restaurant only to find it stopped after 4 minutes. What do you do? Wait for order or tell them you'll be back and walk half a mile again to the charger?

 

That's a error use case and can be remedy with a phone call to get a refund IF idle fees were charged. Wouldn't be hard to prove.

 

I'd rather it work as expected than me hassle with a 1 hour phone call.

 

We often stop for lunch in Goleta and charge our EUV at EA while we eat. We have taken to continuously monitoring the charging process there because the chargers at that location have a nasty habit of quitting prematurely and informing you that your grace period has started. A quick sprint over to EA to restart the charging process is then required. It is not unusual to have to restart 3-4 times in order to get to 80%, although a few flawless sessions have also happened. I have always managed to restart charging within 5 minutes or so, at least …

 

They do sort of send me an alert. It is delayed a few minutes so it lets me walk farther away.


Where's my roof?

 

too

Personally I’m fine with EA charging idle fees regardless of station utilization percentage (you never know when a batch of cars is gonna roll in and all need to charge at the same time, considering a lot of EAs are only 4-6 stalls). They should also keep the 10 min grace period but implement the rest of Tesla’s idle fee policy: $1/min starting from when charging ended billed after the 10 mins. I say 10 mins because we all know EA is infamous for having charge faults and if you get a notification that charging stopped, you may need 10 min to walk back to the charger and re-activate. Also, EA needs to alert you when charging stops with a notification.

I agree — and in addition I would suggest a higher per kWh price for EV charging exceeding (perhaps) 80% SoC. This pricing should also apply to EV’s that bundle “free” EV charging at EA during busy hours when the station is full.

 

Maybe once we have DCFC every 50 miles. Right now, there are some segments of travel where you need to charge to 100% else risk getting stranded.

 

Ran across a user on another forum complaining about getting hit with a $10 idle fee at EA. He claims to have "stepped in" to Walmart to pick up a few items and was indignant about being hit with the fee. This is a user who enjoys free charging, and apparently charged near home while shopping...

So, EA charges $.40/min idle fees according to an Electrek article last year. They have delayed rolling this out, but apparently it is coming.

So, this guy idled for 25 minutes (25 * $.4 = $10), plus a 10 minute grace period. 35 minutes of parking and not charging, and his indignation centered around the station being empty on the 3 other stalls "the entire time" he was there. Nothing said about how many of the idle stations were in service, or whether their RFID or CC readers actually worked.

Hooray for EA finally implementing this! The selfishness of some is unbelievable, and the suffering many of us have endured in the past due to these inconsiderate folks can't be overstated.

His indignation isn't entirely misplaced even though it's not right he's the only one not playing by the rules. We can shame him, sure, but perhaps EA might want to acknowledge that the front of the parking lot isn't the best place for this, as is often the case at Walmarts.

The cynic in me says that's because they saved a ton of money running power drops and that's how the locations were determined. The alternative that we have now, special treatment for wealthy people in expensive cars isn't much better. The motivation surely is to further the technology and its rollout, but optics matter just as much to that as the actual ingredients.

Idle fees are unnecessary in most roll outs since very few places exist where people are idling waiting for parking. Put it in the back, literally every EV owner is ok with having to walk.

I have not worked out the handicap problem. That does need to be worked out.

 

Not sure where the location of the chargers crept into this discussion, but that factor probably has more influence over how many ICE cars park in DCFC spots than EVs idling there, an entirely different problem.

The point it, EA has existed since 2018, and is just now implementing idle fees six years later. It is catching folks off guard, who have been lulled into lackadaisical behavior because of EA's lack of attention to this important aspect. Now EA is enforcing idle fees, so don't get caught off guard.

This guy's indignation was illogical in my book, having been negatively impacted by overcrowding at EA stations several times. His justification was that nobody was using the other chargers, but with a 35 minute idle time, how would he know? And given 25% of EA chargers seem to be out of service at a given time, that means 50% of a 4 stall site would have been unusable during his idle time. Maybe two cars charged at the other stalls during his time in the store, how would he know? If so, anyone else wanting to use his plug would have been out of luck.

If you look at history to analyze the problem, Tesla had many stories of long queues on Holiday weekends at SuC sites early on. Their response was multi-faceted, they added more chargers and sites, discontinued free charging, discouraged >80% charging with higher rates, and implemented idle fees. Additionally, they enhanced navigation to route owners to alternate sites when the target sites was overcrowded.

EVs are a whole new ballgame to ICE owners. Early adopters may be more aware of the need to get in and out as rapidly as possible to make plugs available to others, we grew up in the days of scarce DCFC availability. No amount of eduction will get the point across as effectively as being stung by charges for idle fees. Thus, I posted this thread as a warning to Bolt owners, don't assume EA won't charge idle fees any longer. But, it goes farther, the name of the game is get in and out as fast as possible, this improves charger availability along with all of the other factors. How often it is a critical factor is kind of a side discussion, the assumption should be always move along as soon as you have enough.

On other forums, EV owners view Bolt owners with a degree of disdain. Our Bolts are notorious for slow charging, long dwell times. Stories of that one guy who sits there to reach 100% may be rare, but when people have to wait to charge, become a newsworthy story. Same goes for Bolts insisting on using 350kW units. All it takes is one time exposed to these situations for a reputation about Bolt owners being inconsiderate to spread like wildfire on the internet. Sure, sometimes, there are legit reasons for these breaches of protocol, but communication is they key...get out and talk to other EV owners, show your understanding of etiquette by explaining the 350kW unit was the only one available when you arrived, or that you will only be there a few minutes to get enough to move along.

I do my best to remind folks that knowledgable Bolt owners are the norm, that our average charging times tend to be 30-45 minutes, which isn't horrible considering most other models will spend the better part of 30 minutes there. We may have to stop more often, but we generally don't stay any longer than necessary. And etiquette towards which chargers to use is more complex than just 150 vs 350kW units given some 150kW units are CHAdeMO too, and the only one at the site.

The Bolt's reputation among others isn't helped by inconsiderate charging practices, like the Leaf's poor thermal management is to be blamed for the myth that EV batteries fail prematurely. When new Bolts with faster charging arrive, people will still associate them with the first generation of Bolts out of a lack of understanding.

 

... but perhaps EA might want to acknowledge that the front of the parking lot isn't the best place for this, as is often the case at Walmarts.

All of the EA sites at Target, Walmart, Sheetz, WAWA etc.. here in the Northeast, are far away from the entrances. Not sure I've seen any Charging stations in the front.

Idle fees are unnecessary in most roll outs since very few places exist where people are idling waiting for parking.

Disagree. Idle fees are needed at every site. EA usually only have 4 chargers at site. Get one idiot that goes off on a long "trek" and ties up 25% of the chargers for 30 mins plus. That can be devastating in today's current charging site situation.

 

All of the EA sites at Target, Walmart, Sheetz, WAWA etc.. here in the Northeast, are far away from the entrances. Not sure I've seen any Charging stations in the front.

Disagree. Idle fees are needed at every site. EA usually only have 4 chargers at site. Get one idiot that goes off on a long "trek" and ties up 25% of the chargers for 30 mins plus. That can be devastating in today's current charging site situation.

We both have anecdotes, mine is places like East Stroudsberg, sites like these, specifically Walmart, specifically EA, can be found all in NJ, NE PA and NY taking premium parking:

 

Guys - If the parking was in the back, why would this guy in question be putting his car there? Logic. Site location is everything. (again, jumping ahead, handicap is a problem not solved in my "I know it all" approach)

 

Here in the Pacific NW, EA seems to have placed their stations quite a distance from the entrance doors. This is true for installations at Walmarts, Targets, or larger shopping centers. In fact, a nearby mall has some EA chargers and a Tesla Supercharger station next to each other. The SC station is much closer to the doors of the mall, as well as the two closest stores, a Nordstrom Rack and Best Buy Outlet.

 

Hooray for EA finally implementing this! The selfishness of some is unbelievable, and the suffering many of us have endured in the past due to these inconsiderate folks can't be overstated.

I was actually impressed by the restraint showed by the OP's critics in that thread. I know I had to stop and think it over before I responded. Charger squatters are a pestilence. I've had to wait on them several times in my travels. (People who actually need 100% to cross a charging desert are not "squatters," by the way. )

 

Does burn me up waiting for someone to charge past 90% while I give them what for inside my car. Do they need it? Guess so, cause why would they suffer longer?

They should put Rivian chargers far away. They are the adventurous types.

 

Sometimes though ... at one EA I pulled into (got the only open slot), there was a guy in a Lightning next door. I drifted over to say hi, having not seen one in the wild before that. He said he had just bought it, almost new, from a Dodge dealer! Had been sitting there for over 45 minutes, he said, and was getting tired of waiting for it to finish. Also was interested in info about various apps (besides EA's) that could help with finding charging. Then I noticed his dash saying he was over 90% SoC. Provided a little education about varying charge rates - it's not like a gas station! He was surprised at that. Still did sit around a while longer, but by the time I came back from a walk around the outlet center (no place to eat!) he had left. So sometimes it might be an educate-the-newbie thing, not a jerk.

OTOH, Tesla drivers often seem to be like Cadillac drivers in the old days - entitled as h*** and everybody else should just get out of the way. Easy target for gripes.

 

Update: Now the culprit is clarifying that his CC was dinged for a $10 reload, but the idle fees were actually only $1.20 + tax.

I don't know how much credibility to attribute to the user, he commented several times before finally admitting, and in the wake of nearly unanimous approval of EA's policy, maybe he felt embarrassed?

Regardless, the point is, after 6+ years, EA is finally assessing idle fees, so be aware.

 

What site? By our conversation if you want to glean if he's telling the truth, if it's in the back, probably not.

 

obviously the view of someone who never had a broken leg and had to use crutches or manual wheel chair.

I had debilitating spinal impingement for 2 months that had me in excruciating pain, and almost left me unable to walk due to having almost no ability to control my hamstring or calf muscles.

The proper remedy would be to have adequate health insurance and access to effective pain relief medication, along with temporary medical leave from work. Everything subsided after 2 months though. I bought grey-market opiates and took the bare minimum to reduce pain to a the level I could have a conversation, and stuck to a strict dosing schedule so as to not escalate dose or frequency.

...Wheelchairs need room to get in out and of vehicles. We could go on and on and on. The world sucks for the handicapped, especially in places with old infrastructure. Can't go back and reconstruct NYC for wheel chair accessibility but you can ensure there's room on each side of a parking space and that it's close to the doors for the extreme minority of us who need to struggle with these things.

It actually really does need to be worked out.

You've agreed with what I've said, that handicapped parking needs more space to accommodate equipment.

I disagree that life sucks for the handicapped as a blanket statement.

I'll agree that it does "need to be worked out"... by putting the spaces in the back of the parking lot. There would be no temptation to park there unless the extra space was needed, meaning a wheelchair van would have a higher probability of finding a space with adequate room than if the spots were located up front.

That is totally wrong and obviously from someone who hasn't thought about the multiple possibilities.
When my wife was dealing with cancer, there were "mechanical aids" but they weren't some magic tools that fixed everything and made getting around just as simple.

This did hit a nerve with me and I am not good at keeping non-biased on this. I remember how difficult it was when she wanted to go to a specific place and someone who didn't have a placard was in the the handicap spot. We had to park further away and it was much harder for her...
That person I'm sure was thinking it is really no big deal.
My wife passed away several months after that, and I will never forget that whenever I see someone without a placard or someone mentions handicap spots as not being a big deal...

That's why I made the provocative statement, to "think about the multiple possibilities".

My condolences on the loss of your wife.

And you think mechanical aids are all they need to get around like a fully mobile person? You need to rethink that position my friend.

Possibly. If 50ft is acceptable, but 150ft is an unacceptable distance, my engineering instinct is to figure out what device is needed to make up that 100ft deficit. Once inside the establishment, there's untold more feet needing to be traversed.

 

I disagree that life sucks for the handicapped as a blanket statement.

There are 0 people in wheel chairs in NYC who disagree with that statement in the context of accommodations for mobility. I'm not going to get into a long argument on the necessities of handicap spaces, really just trying to warn you that I understand your motivations for making the arguments you're making, but, you're just wrong here, lol.

The difference between the person who agrees with that statement, that "life sucks for mobility" and doesn't is specifically accommodation by law vs. not (old vs. new mainly, but not limited to, in the US). If you happen to be exposed to a place where handicap accessibility is good, then good for you, I'd encourage you to spend 5 minutes Googling any of the other things I've mentioned.

My argument is that in order to not make life suck for people who need accommodations for the future we're building now, it should be thought of as we're casually disregarding (again) the human side to this making blind statements about what people need without actually finding out for ourselves and using a bit of empathy.

 

Charging the Tesla long-range yesterday (2nd time public charging), it hit the 250 kW peak, but it didn't stay there long. Most of the charging session was spent at 150 kW or below.

The car told me I only needed to spend 2 minutes charging to make it home, but I stayed until 80% because I need to use up the 5,000 miles included with the car purchase. My center screen included details about the charging session, including $0.35/kWh, and a $0.50/min idle fee.

As long as idle fees are stated clearly, I encourage them as a means of promoting higher productivity utilization of the expensive equipment. It's vital for charging infrastructure to approach break-even (or maybe a profit one day) if we want abundant and reliable chargers.

 

Ikea and DMV a hamster/wheel with a full charge guarantee...

Today I finally received my license plates, 2 months after submitting the paperwork. Maybe the inmates are on strike, affecting plate production?

 

Maybe the inmates are on strike, affecting plate production?

Can't speak about OR, but in WA they are retooling the equipment they use to manufacture license plates, so none are currently being made. They didn't seem to consider that production needed to continue at least at a lower rate and replace the equipment one location at a time. Maybe OR and WA contracted together to really mess both states up.