[GregBrew]

It might take a billion dollars and 10 years to build a refinery. We buy a lot of products that were refined in other countries. That saves us some money.

Yes, the price of electricity has been going up more than inflation in the last few years. I remember my mother complaining about DTE bill. I think it was less than 2 cents/kWh.

Speaking of refineries...the largest one on the West coast (Chevron El Segundo) exploded last Thursday. It produced 20% of vehicle fuels, and 40% of the Jet A consumed in Southern California.

It's been predicted that gasoline prices (that are already at about $5/gallon) could increase by another dollar, until the refinery is brought back online.

Man, I'm glad my stable is all-electric, and I've got 10kW of PV and 50kWh of batteries!

 

[p7wang]

Speaking of refineries...the largest one on the West coast (Chevron El Segundo) exploded last Thursday. It produced 20% of vehicle fuels, and 40% of the Jet A consumed in Southern California.

It's been predicted that gasoline prices (that are already at about $5/gallon) could increase by another dollar, until the refinery is brought back online.

Man, I'm glad my stable is all-electric, and I've got 10kW of PV and 50kWh of batteries!

It's funny how some stable geniuses blank out on reality when they want to argue their point. The Data Center demand will drive up electricity demand. By banning renewables, this means the energy will come from fossil fuel. When demand grow faster than supply, all fuel prices will go up. LOL

As for price of electricity, once your utility charges what would be the LCOE of a home solar+battery system, you are better off getting a system for yourself. Suddenly, you are protected from usage rate increases for a decade or two.

 

[Sean Nelson]

Fuel, like food and medicine, has an inelastic demand.

I think that in a world with reasonable availability of electric vehicles it's a lot more elastic than it used to be. If gas goes north of $10.00/gallon you'd see an awful lot of people looking to drive electric. That would reduce demand and force prices back down again.

Of course the sudden demand for EVs would affect their price too. It'd be a dynamic rebalancing on many fronts.

 

[BMWEXPAT]

Speaking of refineries...the largest one on the West coast (Chevron El Segundo) exploded last Thursday. It produced 20% of vehicle fuels, and 40% of the Jet A consumed in Southern California.

It's been predicted that gasoline prices (that are already at about $5/gallon) could increase by another dollar, until the refinery is brought back online.

Man, I'm glad my stable is all-electric, and I've got 10kW of PV and 50kWh of batteries!

It's a bummer that the Chevron refinery had an explosion. However the it will be repaired and likly will be online 100% in a few months. So far no real impact on gas prices.

The real concern is Valero is the latest company to pull out of California and is scheduled to close it's Benicia refinery in April of 26. This is causing panic with the Democratic legislature and little Gavy's desire to run for president in 2028. It just won't do to have $8-10 a gallon for gas, when the rest of the nation is around $3.

Thus the Democrats are considering the following:

According to Bloomberg, state lawmakers are negotiating to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to Valero Energy corporation. The proposed bailout of $80 to $200 million would help pay for maintenance costs at the plant that was built in 1968.

This would be on top of the $1.4 Billion dollar bailout for the Diablo Nuclear Power Plant the Democratic legislator authorized last year.

It's very ironic that the super green Dems do a complete 180 when it affects their chances for reelection and keeping power.

 

[BMWEXPAT]

It's funny how some stable geniuses blank out on reality when they want to argue their point. The Data Center demand will drive up electricity demand. By banning renewables, this means the energy will come from fossil fuel. When demand grow faster than supply, all fuel prices will go up. LOL

As for price of electricity, once your utility charges what would be the LCOE of a home solar+battery system, you are better off getting a system for yourself. Suddenly, you are protected from usage rate increases for a decade or two.

Where has anyone stated that renewables should be banned? The issue with renewables is they are not cost effective or scalable when it comes to meeting the power demands of datacenters. Thus you have Microsoft spending Billions to re-open 3 mile island nuclear power plant as well as Google investing in mini- reactors to power some of their sites. Many other are looking to build natural gas power plants onsite to power datacenters.

Solar home systems can make sense if you live in the south or southwest but there is no ROI for home battery systems. I've looked at adding a battery system that would power my home for around a week. Can't be done for under $50K. Thought of buying an electric Ford F150 with the big battery pack, (which would work to power the house) but I have no need for a large pickup that would sit around with not much practical use.

 

[p7wang]

Where has anyone stated that renewables should be banned? The issue with renewables is they are not cost effective or scalable when it comes to meeting the power demands of datacenters. Thus you have Microsoft spending Billions to re-open 3 mile island nuclear power plant as well as Google investing in mini- reactors to power some of their sites. Many other are looking to build natural gas power plants onsite to power datacenters.

Solar home systems can make sense if you live in the south or southwest but there is no ROI for home battery systems. I've looked at adding a battery system that would power my home for around a week. Can't be done for under $50K. Thought of buying an electric Ford F150 with the big battery pack, (which would work to power the house) but I have no need for a large pickup that would sit around with not much practical use.

Ban renewables and EVs, ask your Cmdr in Chief. LOL

Even $50K (probably price quote from a decade ago) is cheap compared to 10-25 years of home electricity PLUS gasoline. "UpSide" claims Americans are paying $6K a month on gasoline! LOL

A trust stable person would see the benefit of Hybrids and realize that a combination of fossil fuel + battery + renewable is the way forward. Such that certain groups paid by certain special interest groups are lobbying for legislation to BAN that option and succeeded in some places.

 

[pagrey]

I haven't paid $1 for electricity for my Bolt yet, I have 16KW of solar on my roof at home, and thats done 100% of the charging.

Not to be critical but you paid way more than $1.

 

[atc98092]

"UpSide" claims Americans are paying $6K a month on gasoline!

What, someone have a fleet of Hummers? I pay less than $150 a month for three cars, with only one that actually uses much. My PHEV uses maybe $10 per month (if I need to drive further than my EV range more than once or twice), our pickup goes about 70 miles in a month, so 5 gallons/$15, and my daughter uses the most gas, maybe $80. Looks like my estimate is too high, we barely pay $100 per month.

 

[BMWEXPAT]

Ban renewables and EVs, ask your Cmdr in Chief. LOL

Even $50K (probably price quote from a decade ago) is cheap compared to 10-25 years of home electricity PLUS gasoline. "UpSide" claims Americans are paying $6K a month on gasoline! LOL

A trust stable person would see the benefit of Hybrids and realize that a combination of fossil fuel + battery + renewable is the way forward. Such that certain groups paid by certain special interest groups are lobbying for legislation to BAN that option and succeeded in some places.

Cutting off Federal subsidies for EV's, solar, and wind projects is not banning them. It's removing Government from the private sector purchasing decision. Last I checked there are 50+ models of EV's and various price points that one can buy today. You want to put solar on your house, multiple companies are available to choose from. Wind, projects now need to be economically viable or they don't make sense.

Nothing is banned, purchase decisions are now back to what makes the most sense for my needs and use. Maybe it's an EV or hybrid, maybe not.

 

[p7wang]

Cutting off Federal subsidies for EV's, solar, and wind projects is not banning them. It's removing Government from the private sector purchasing decision. Last I checked there are 50+ models of EV's and various price points that one can buy today. You want to put solar on your house, multiple companies are available to choose from. Wind, projects now need to be economically viable or they don't make sense.

Nothing is banned, purchase decisions are now back to what makes the most sense for my needs and use. Maybe it's an EV or hybrid, maybe not.

Then let's remove oil and gas subsidy also, as Elon suggested. Let's play on level playing field. Seems fossil fuel is also not viable without govt support.

 

[BMWEXPAT]

Then let's remove oil and gas subsidy also, as Elon suggested. Let's play on level playing field. Seems fossil fuel is also not viable without govt support.

I actually agree with you. In reality, it will never be done due to the financial and lobbying power of the oil industry. Also, oil is woven into the entire fabric of the US economy. The oil industry equally influences both Democrats & Republicans and it would take an act of congress to alter those subsidies. This would be the equivalent of touching the 3rd rail in politics.

 

[Left Coast Geek]

Cutting off Federal subsidies for EV's, solar, and wind projects is not banning them. It's removing Government from the private sector purchasing decision. Last I checked there are 50+ models of EV's and various price points that one can buy today. You want to put solar on your house, multiple companies are available to choose from. Wind, projects now need to be economically viable or they don't make sense.

Nothing is banned, purchase decisions are now back to what makes the most sense for my needs and use. Maybe it's an EV or hybrid, maybe not.

the feds just banned a 6.2 GW solar project in Nevada by refusing to process the mandated EIR. This would have powered 2 million households. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/10/climate/nevada-solar-esmerelda7.html

 

[p7wang]

I actually agree with you. In reality, it will never be done due to the financial and lobbying power of the oil industry. Also, oil is woven into the entire fabric of the US economy. The oil industry equally influences both Democrats & Republicans and it would take an act of congress to alter those subsidies. This would be the equivalent of touching the 3rd rail in politics.

So to complete your thoughts on this issue... fossil fuel is not competitive with renewables unless fossil fuel continues to get subsidy. Sounds like a stable genius. LOL

 

[bisco]

so let's bring back the ev credits, to at least get a little closer to a level playing field. that way, folks can make their purchasing decision on something other than true costs.

 

[GregBrew]

Not to be critical but you paid way more than $1.

Nope.

The lifetime energy cost for my PV system is $.10/kWh. Not bad, when the PoCo rate is closer to $.40/kWh.

I suspect Left Coast Geek's system penciled out to a similar rate.

 

[pagrey]

Nope.

The lifetime energy cost for my PV system is $.10/kWh. Not bad, when the PoCo rate is closer to $.40/kWh.

I suspect Left Coast Geek's system penciled out to a similar rate.

Not to be critical but you paid way more than one dollar, in your example $0.10/kWh it would take about $5 to charge the Bolt each time. That's a great cost but yep, more than $1, which is all I said.

 

[6086maggie]

You all are lucky that you do not live in Washington State where we suffer from the highest fuel prices. R-gas starts at $4.75 & Diesel at $5.30 & it in worse in Seattle, Tacoma, Everett side of Puget Sound. Sure love our 2023 Bolt EUV & charging at home @ 12 cents/KWH & we are getting 3.8 miles/KWH... It cost more to cross the Tacoma Narrows Bridge than to drive round trip from Silverdale to Tacoma & back. We heat with oil & it was about 50cent/gallon to by diesel @ Costco than have it delivered. But TABs are $225 more because it is all electric. Those funds do not go to BIG OIL RIPOFF. I will not state the cost of AVGAS where you need to take out a loan to fill up, about $35/Hr in fuel only @105mph no wind, slower with the cold air. in our Cessna 172 I no longer have but miss dearly. John

 

[redpoint5]

Ban renewables and EVs, ask your Cmdr in Chief. LOL

Even $50K (probably price quote from a decade ago) is cheap compared to 10-25 years of home electricity PLUS gasoline.

Here's your opportunity to link to something supporting your claim that someone in particular is attempting to ban EVs and renewables... or you can apologize for trying to dupe people into a lie.

A $50k upfront cost has a huge investment opportunity cost that goes well beyond the initial cost.

Then let's remove oil and gas subsidy also, as Elon suggested. Let's play on level playing field. Seems fossil fuel is also not viable without govt support.

Fossil fuels receive a miniscule amount of subsidy per BTU, especially compared with so-called renewables. If subsidies were dropped for everything, we'd see solar only used in space, and fossil fuels powering everything. Fossil fuels are what subsidize the entire economy after all, including their own subsidies.

"Stable geniuses" say we're only going to need petroleum products for 10 more years... back in 2020. I better sell my natural gas stocks before we stop using them in 4 years.

Stable geniuses are also demonstrate their stability on bicycles and stairs.

 

[p7wang]

Here's your opportunity to link to something supporting your claim that someone in particular is attempting to ban EVs and renewables... or you can apologize for trying to dupe people into a lie.

A $50k upfront cost has a huge investment opportunity cost that goes well beyond the initial cost.



Fossil fuels receive a miniscule amount of subsidy per BTU, especially compared with so-called renewables. If subsidies were dropped for everything, we'd see solar only used in space, and fossil fuels powering everything. Fossil fuels are what subsidize the entire economy after all, including their own subsidies.

"Stable geniuses" say we're only going to need petroleum products for 10 more years... back in 2020. I better sell my natural gas stocks before we stop using them in 4 years.

Stable geniuses are also demonstrate their stability on bicycles and stairs.

Measure of subsidy should be per mile traveled, not BTU. Measuring subsidy by BTU just incentivizing waste. But I guess that's the point of market capitalism. It is a miracle that we actually have socialist regional grids in place. Otherwise, we will see stable geniuses saying we should have fuel tankers deliver fuel to our homes so we can power gas powered appliances. LOL

 

[bisco]

You all are lucky that you do not live in Washington State where we suffer from the highest fuel prices. R-gas starts at $4.75 & Diesel at $5.30 & it in worse in Seattle, Tacoma, Everett side of Puget Sound. Sure love our 2023 Bolt EUV & charging at home @ 12 cents/KWH & we are getting 3.8 miles/KWH... It cost more to cross the Tacoma Narrows Bridge than to drive round trip from Silverdale to Tacoma & back. We heat with oil & it was about 50cent/gallon to by diesel @ Costco than have it delivered. But TABs are $225 more because it is all electric. Those funds do not go to BIG OIL RIPOFF. I will not state the cost of AVGAS where you need to take out a loan to fill up, about $35/Hr in fuel only @105mph no wind, slower with the cold air. in our Cessna 172 I no longer have but miss dearly. John

i would love to live somewhere where gas was $4.75 and electricity was 12 cents!