except in parts of the northeast, but it depends on the mpg vs mpkwh.

 

except in parts of the northeast

Yup, MIT needs to fire up a Tony Stark Arc reactor, what are they even doing over there!

 

and kwh prices keep going up, while gas prices are very stable

 

Interesting scam. If overall power production has to go up and we are going to ban renewables, how can they keep gas price stable? Sounds like only something a stable genius would believe. LOL

 

it's a great question. looking back about a hundred years, gas was 20 cents a gallon, and electricity was 5 cents a kwh.
now, gas is in the high 2 dollars around here, and kwh's are 40 cents and climbing steadily.
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APUS11A72610

 

As your post attests to, there is more geographic variation in electricity rates than in gas prices. If I'm not mistaken, 16 cents per kWh is what we pay during peak hours [and of course, I charge my Bolt during non peak hours and pay less than this].

In some ways, electricity is more localized in nature. Petroleum and refined gasoline pretty much comes from the same place [and is transported]. Electricity can be distributed from one place/state to another to some extent, but production is more local in nature. Moreover, maintaining a local infrastructure is a big factor in electricity costs. So, extreme weather events [and measures to mitigate potential damage/outages] have a big impact on rates. In other words electric rates are going to be higher in hurricane prone areas [and climate change is just making this worse].

 

The graph I have seen shows that fuel is essentially stable across inflation over the years. When I got my driver's license, gasoline went from $0.20 a gallon to $0.24 a gallon

 

The graphs I have seen shows that fuel is essentially stable across inflation over the years. When I got my driver's license, gasoline went from $0.20 a gallon to $0.24 a gallon.[/QUOTE]

 

Lock in your electricity rate by setting up your production.

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

If overall power production has to go up and we are going to ban renewables, how can they keep gas price stable?

Gas prices are relatively stable because that's how commodities work. When prices increase, there is incentive to produce from previously unprofitable wells. When prices decrease, unprofitable sources are curtailed.

I've not heard anything about banning so-called renewables.

Think about this, if the gas price rises to $1000/gal for two weeks and then returns to $4/gal it doesn't change the yearly average much at all but you had to pay $10,000 to fill your tank that week. Gas prices aren't stable, you can't average them, it wont show you the true cost because you aren't paying the average price.

Your argument is a hypothetical that has never happened?

We do pay the average over time, because it evens out over time. The high prices we pay are offset by the lows.

Here's the stats for a decade of fills on my Acura-

• Lifetime Fuel Economy: 30 mpg (US), 7.8 L/100 km, 36 mpg (Imp)
• 90-day Fuel Economy: 24.2 mpg (US), 9.7 L/100 km, 29.1 mpg (Imp)
• 3-tank Fuel Economy: 26.1 mpg (US), 9 L/100 km, 31.4 mpg (Imp)
• EPA Combined Rating / % over rating: 22 mpg (US) / 10% (based on 90-day fuel economy)
• Total fills: 138
• Average cost per gal/L: $3.33 per gal (US); $0.00 per L (price data entered for 136 fill/s)
• Average cost per fill: $44.30
• Average distance cost: $0.11 per mi. / $0.07 per km
• Total fuel used: 1832.09 gal (US), 6935.2 L
• Total distance traveled: 54951.5 mi. / 88435.9 km
• Total cost: $6,024.99
• Total fuel saved vs. EPA: 665.7 gal. (US) / 2519.9 L
• Total saved: $2216.78 (based on avg. cost per gal./L)
• Average tank distance: 398.2 mi. / 640.8 km

The last time I recorded a fill up, I paid $4.60/gallon.

2006 Acura TSX Gas Mileage (Acura TSX) - EcoModder.com

As an aside, if gasoline ever hit $1000 / gallon, I would siphon out everything I have and sell it. The reason the price can never go that high is that alternatives become the better bargain. I'd have a wood-fired steam car before I paid $1000 gallon. Natural gas is already 5x less expensive per BTU than gasoline, so we would be switching engines to use that instead.

 

My charging costs 10 cents per kWh even with electricity prices spiking 20% here in New Jersey. That’s because I locked in a lower rate by signing a contract with Clearview Energy before the price spike and using their EV charging program which reimburses me the supply cost of the electricity. That’s the difference between me and the average person, though. The average person cries and complains and begs for someone somewhere to please help them. I make a plan and actually do something when there are problems.

 

neither of those options are available around here

 

gas prices are now more stable just because we have so much oil from fracking.

 

It might take a billion dollars and 10 years to build a refinery. We buy a lot of products that were refined in other countries. That saves us some money.

Yes, the price of electricity has been going up more than inflation in the last few years. I remember my mother complaining about DTE bill. I think it was less than 2 cents/kWh.

 

It might take a billion dollars and 10 years to build a refinery. We buy a lot of products that were refined in other countries. That saves us some money.

Yes, the price of electricity has been going up more than inflation in the last few years. I remember my mother complaining about DTE bill. I think it was less than 2 cents/kWh.

Speaking of refineries...the largest one on the West coast (Chevron El Segundo) exploded last Thursday. It produced 20% of vehicle fuels, and 40% of the Jet A consumed in Southern California.

It's been predicted that gasoline prices (that are already at about $5/gallon) could increase by another dollar, until the refinery is brought back online.

Man, I'm glad my stable is all-electric, and I've got 10kW of PV and 50kWh of batteries!

 

I haven't paid $1 for electricity for my Bolt yet, I have 16KW of solar on my roof at home, and thats done 100% of the charging.

 

Not to be critical but you paid way more than $1.

 

Interesting article that does a very good job of summarizing typical cost among the main vehicle options. The market seems to be following the trends as EV sales have plateaued and will decline a bit as consumers have found they are not the all everything as hyped. Consumers have already swung towards hybrids in a major way. To meet future demand, every manufacturer except Tesla has significantly scaled back EV plans and is ramping up new hybrids/ICE vehicles. ICE vehicle's will continue and thrive in certain segments.

As others have said the price of gasoline is relatively stable and unless some unexpected disruption in supply occurs this should remain the case for the next several years. Electricity costs are another matter, they are rising much faster than the rate of inflation and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The driver for the increases is the push for renewables and the rise of data center expansions.

Data Centers are massive power consumers. A single data center consumes the equivalent of a small town with a population of 15-20000 people. The newer hyper-centers can consume the same amount of power as medium sized city with a population of 500000 to 800000 residents. There are several hundred data centers either under construction or planned in the next 2 years alone. Bottomline the demand is way higher than supply so the only thing that will happen is electricity pricing for the consumer is going to go through the roof in many states.

If you can't home charge that EV is going to start looking less economical that a hybrid that nets 40+ MPG.

 

so let's bring back the ev credits, to at least get a little closer to a level playing field. that way, folks can make their purchasing decision on something other than true costs.

 

You all are lucky that you do not live in Washington State where we suffer from the highest fuel prices. R-gas starts at $4.75 & Diesel at $5.30 & it in worse in Seattle, Tacoma, Everett side of Puget Sound. Sure love our 2023 Bolt EUV & charging at home @ 12 cents/KWH & we are getting 3.8 miles/KWH... It cost more to cross the Tacoma Narrows Bridge than to drive round trip from Silverdale to Tacoma & back. We heat with oil & it was about 50cent/gallon to by diesel @ Costco than have it delivered. But TABs are $225 more because it is all electric. Those funds do not go to BIG OIL RIPOFF. I will not state the cost of AVGAS where you need to take out a loan to fill up, about $35/Hr in fuel only @105mph no wind, slower with the cold air. in our Cessna 172 I no longer have but miss dearly. John

 

i would love to live somewhere where gas was $4.75 and electricity was 12 cents!

 

Ban renewables and EVs, ask your Cmdr in Chief. LOL

Even $50K (probably price quote from a decade ago) is cheap compared to 10-25 years of home electricity PLUS gasoline.

Here's your opportunity to link to something supporting your claim that someone in particular is attempting to ban EVs and renewables... or you can apologize for trying to dupe people into a lie.

A $50k upfront cost has a huge investment opportunity cost that goes well beyond the initial cost.

Then let's remove oil and gas subsidy also, as Elon suggested. Let's play on level playing field. Seems fossil fuel is also not viable without govt support.

Fossil fuels receive a miniscule amount of subsidy per BTU, especially compared with so-called renewables. If subsidies were dropped for everything, we'd see solar only used in space, and fossil fuels powering everything. Fossil fuels are what subsidize the entire economy after all, including their own subsidies.

"Stable geniuses" say we're only going to need petroleum products for 10 more years... back in 2020. I better sell my natural gas stocks before we stop using them in 4 years.

Stable geniuses are also demonstrate their stability on bicycles and stairs.

 

Here's your opportunity to link to something supporting your claim that someone in particular is attempting to ban EVs and renewables... or you can apologize for trying to dupe people into a lie.

A $50k upfront cost has a huge investment opportunity cost that goes well beyond the initial cost.



Fossil fuels receive a miniscule amount of subsidy per BTU, especially compared with so-called renewables. If subsidies were dropped for everything, we'd see solar only used in space, and fossil fuels powering everything. Fossil fuels are what subsidize the entire economy after all, including their own subsidies.

"Stable geniuses" say we're only going to need petroleum products for 10 more years... back in 2020. I better sell my natural gas stocks before we stop using them in 4 years.

Stable geniuses are also demonstrate their stability on bicycles and stairs.

Measure of subsidy should be per mile traveled, not BTU. Measuring subsidy by BTU just incentivizing waste. But I guess that's the point of market capitalism. It is a miracle that we actually have socialist regional grids in place. Otherwise, we will see stable geniuses saying we should have fuel tankers deliver fuel to our homes so we can power gas powered appliances. LOL

 

You guys think your costs are bad. I live in the Peoples Republic of California, Bay Area to be spacific.

Gas - 4.75+ per gallon
Electric Cost - .34-.40 per KWH - It's a tiered system depending on use. Not hard to get to top rates
Sales Tax -10.25 %
Annual Car registration fees based on value. 40 year old car still costs over $200. Newest just dropped to $600+
Saving grace is Prop 13 which limits property tax rate increases.
In spite of the one party socialist rule in California it's a great place to live, if you have the money. The weather and fantastic driving roads work for me.

I saw the freight train coming for electricity rates 15 years ago when I got a $750 bill for running our AC for several weeks straight durring a bad prolonged hot spell. Rates have doubled since then. 2012 Invested in a 23 panel solar system, that had a 5 year payback on my money. 3 years ago added a second 10 panel system as we were heading towards retirement in the next 2-3 years and an EV would make sense. Per my calculations adding that EV would be the rough equivalent of a 2nd AC system. Currently YTD PG&E owes me $475 for excess power produced. As I can control when and how much I want to use my gas cars I don't really care about the price of gas.

Overall retired life is good and if it changes we have options to relocate to somewhere better.

 

Electric Cost - .34-.40 per KWH - It's a tiered system depending on use. Not hard to get to top rates

It's eye opening that's for sure. Here in Denver, offpeak winter KWH is 8 cents. We have some solar on our house, it provides maybe 33% of our needs. Our evil utility monopoly, Xcel, does everything in it's power to limit residential solar capacity so that nobody ever gets money back from producing more than they consume.

 

Note the Bolt EV is also one of the most efficient EVs in Miles/KWH ... After a 200 mile trip on Thursday, mine registered an average of 4.5 miles/kwh ... that calculator on NYT shows 5.0 miles/kwh as...

 

we never get any money back, but net positive months accumulate all summer and cover the couple net negative months in the winter... last year I had an annual net of +1000% (I generated 10X more solar than I used).

 

Our evil utility would never allow a house to have that kind of generation installed in the first place.

 

My home and the City of Burlington's 1772 charging stations are 20¢/kW. Gas is about $3.20. Fast charging is usually around 56¢, which is what their blue bar seems to be. There is one DCFC run by Burlington's electric company that is also only 20¢!!
Their calculator tracks pretty well:

 

Oil companies need no subsidies, of course. But Republicans LOVE Socialism, when they are transferring wealth of taxpayers to the already-wealthy!

"If you ever doubted the Republican love of the Free Market, a new report has found that Trump's economic law will give the oil and gas industry an additional $40 billion in new subsidies, Wired reports.
That $40 billion won't be paid out all at once, though. Instead, it works out to about $4 billion a year for the next decade. That's, of course, on top of the $30.8 billion in subsidies the oil and gas industry already receives. It's also "the largest single-year increase in subsidies we've seen in many years—at least since 2017," Collin Rees, the US program manager for Oil Change International."
–– Oil And Gas Industry To Get $40 Billion In New Subsidies From Republicans Because They Love The Free Market So Much

 

yesterday, my Bolt was 12 amp L1 charging all day and night except a brief period in the late afternoon/early evening (we went out to dinner), this after I did a nearly 200 mile drive the day before. yesterday was a typical mostly sunny mid october day.

generated 55kWH of solar (mid summer, its more like 85 kWH per day), consumed 50 kWH charging, and net exported 5.8 kWH to PG&E. I can't wait til my L2 charger is hooked up, hopefully next week ?

 

solar proposed to us was a ten year breakeven. but this isn't california

 

yeah, we expected a 10 year breakeven, but our electric rates keep going up

 

Gas is a consumable. Solar is hardware. Two completely different products.

I’m done here.

 

Solar panels don't last forever, they are consumable. You can say you're done and that's fine but you're not even close to understanding the answer.

 

Calm down people. @pagrey is making an argument in terms of cost amortization over the life of the solar panels. In that sense, the "cost" is never zero. That's a technically correct way of describing the cost of an asset that depreciates.

It's a semantic argument. The payback period is less than 3 years, and @Left Coast Geek is getting a great return on his investment.

 

Just to perturb everyone even more, I consider investment opportunity cost when considering the total cost of solar.

I paid $10k for my 6.4kWh solar installation (with lots of subsidies) and a projected 10 year break-even. What would that $10k have appreciated to in a low cost index fund 10 years later?

I'll need a new roof in the next few years, and I have no idea what the cost to remove and reinstall the panels would be. I will probably do that work myself, but I'm not looking forward to it.

 

I probably should start a driving/charging log but the charging part will be easier once the L2 charger is wired up next week. The charger was $430 + $40 sales tax, and the installation will be $360 or something, lets just call it $800 total, so that's some more sunk cost.

...
I'll need a new roof in the next few years, and I have no idea what the cost to remove and reinstall the panels would be. I will probably do that work myself, but I'm not looking forward to it.

yeah, we got a new roof about 5 years before we got solar, and we got the premium 30 year asphalt shingles

magnetic north is the right side. our local climate, mornings are often overcast, so we concentrated the panels on the west rather than east sides. the roofs pitch is very shallow... 16KW of panels generate 85-90 kWh most days in June & July, tapering off to 50-60 kWH in October and 20-30 kWH per day in December/January...

This was last year, pre-electric car. We weren't home Jan-Apr, so usage was a little lower, but I left my home computer servers running, they average about 500 watts. December was cold, so a lot of electric heat.